Here is the latest in my debate with Mansoor Muhammed of Hyderabad India and runs the Christ and Mohammed website:
<mansoor>"I have no god – damn idea what u believ in. you cant just say this land belongs to them that and land belongs to them etc."
What is your point, oh insulting one who claims others are being nasty?
When the Ottomans still ruled the area a census showed very few Arabs or Jews in the Judea/Samaria area…only AFTER the Ottoman empire collapsed did the British come in to administer the area, there was NO SHRED OF A LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT after the Turks left. Because of this the vast majority of EVERYONE in the area is descended from fairly recent immigrants. NEITHER side has a "native" claim though; the Arabs have NO claim that is not attached to warlike conquest, while the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Jerusalem. (let me remind you that the ENTIRE STORY OF MOSES) has been shown to be without basis in archeology or history..this means that we do not KNOW if the Jews invaded Canaan or not. Either way it puts their ultimate claim far, far earlier than any Arab claim.
When the British established a civilized regime and the Zionists started steadily moving there, THEN the Arab population rose due to the new jobs from the industry of the new rulers and the new immigrants.
This is all easily confirmed public data my dear friend who puts others down as nasty and arrogant all the while being as nasty and arrogant as he can manage.
One of the regions administered by the British was set aside as a place where Jews would have a RIGHT to SETTLE (not RULE the Arabs), simply a permanent right to live in their ancient homeland.
BUT, many of the Arabs, mainly those following that Nazi-loving prankster Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, freaked out at the concept…I dunno why, something about apes and pigs and the end of days and heads cut off… I try not to listen to idiots.
SO, this "holy" man starts a guerilla war against Jewish settlers and does all he can to make sure not a single Jew remains in THE WORLD.
THIS IS THE MAN WHO GAVE HITLER the idea for a "final solution", and formed an Muslim S.S. division to help with the genocide!!!!!
Still with me? Do you see now that you can’t just look at what is going on NOW and pretend that you know who is the bad guy?
The MOST you could do that way, if you really are what you say you are, is a neutral; declaring that BOTH sides have lost the moral high ground in your mind.
But, anytime you whine and whimper about ANYTHING the Jews might or might not have done. you need to know who has been the aggressor SINCE THE FIGHT STARTED.
You also need to see who has kept their agreements and international law, and who has violated them all freely.
You keep getting on me for not condemning Israel, how about the idiots who are insuring the deaths of THEIR OWN WOMEN AND CHILDREN SO THEY CAN SHOW IT ON CNN and beat their breast over how oppressed they are?
Who is worse? An honorable soldier who FINALLY has had enough with the barbarians, or the barbarian who will put missiles and weapons in a Mosque or school or hospital BECAUSE they know that either IDF (who do NOT target civilians, if they did there would BE NO Palestinians!) will decide not to fire, or the Muslims will have some nice, bloody corpses of their OWN WOMEN & CHILDREN to flaunt and use as cynically as any Soviet Aparatchick ever used a peasant.
Who is worse my friend? Who is worse?
Also, it can’t be called genocide when the population constantly RISES!!! It doesn’t even qualify as ethnic cleansing. . To call it slaughter, or, genocide is to insult and degrade every person who ever suffered a REAL genocide.
Since when can people who START A CIVIL WAR, then call in (SEVERAL) FOREIGN, RELIGIOUSLY GENOCIDAL ARMIES to be unleashed upon their neighbors, in defiance of international law, AND LOSE, expect to have a right to the land they tried to steal? Why does no one care about the German ethnics expelled from Eastern Europe after WWII? Because you are not a refugee if your side STARTED the war and then lost…ooops so sorry, better luck next time!
Remember, if the Arabs had NOT gone ballistic and criminal, the Jews would have been a minority under Arab rule, protected by the U.N. but, without sovereign power. The biggest "naqba" of the time was, quite simply, the stupidity and arrogance of the Arab/Muslim leadership.
By trying to have the whole pie in defiance of the U.N. AND international law, and then starting a WAR over it, the local Arabs lost all legal (and moral) right to call themselves refugees in any honest sense.
If you ever want to see what Hamas is really like, view a little of their television, it is some seriously sick stuff they pump into their children’s heads!
So, we have Arabs starting to kill Jews in the 20’s and 30’s, I will freely admit that there was at least one Jewish defense group of the time that went over the line and became just what they were fighting.
But, I also know that this group was finally shut down by the main defense org that DID follow international law, meanwhile the Arabs cultures have NEVER embraced things like the Geneva Convention etc. (signing is not the same as following …unless it is for THEIR people who get captured, not those whom THEY capture.
After WWII had ended, and the UN had been formed, a large piece of the area was made into "Mesopotamia" later Iraq, and MOST (77%) of the land that had been set aside FOR JEWISH SETTLEMENT but, not autonomous government, was GIVEN, to Arab locals (Palestinians, don’t ya know?) who had NEVER RULED IT THEMSELVES, and had hardly owned any of the land outright, to form the PALESTINIAN MAJORITY Kingdom of Jordan.
Balfour Declaration of 1917; stated that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"…"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".
Under the Turks the area was owned by absentee landlords and ruled with such severity that one Caliph was called by his fellow religionists "the butcher".
<mansoor>"I know you have gone ga ga over this quotes. If i go by this quotes then Australia originally belongs to the Aborigines, America belongs to the red indians, India to the dravidians and South africa to the african natives."
Such a shiny, innocent face as you distort realty until it screams in pain…
The difference is that no one TOOK anything from the Arabs that wasn’t already in foreign hands!
"“They (Jews) paid high prices for the land, and in addition, they paid to certain occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.” —Hope Simpson Report, 1930
“Of the total of 418,000 dunums (quarter-acres)
acquired by Jews in Palestine [between 1878 and 1914], 58 percent was sold by non-Palestinian [Arab] absentee landlords and 36 percent by Palestinian absentee landlords, for a total of 94 percent.”
—Palestinian-American historian Rashid Khalidi"
<mansoor>"So if these native guys suddenly come knocking one fine day and settle in their native lands BY DRIVING AWAY THE LOCALs"
Who drove who away? Can’t you read a TIMELINE? ARABS ATTACKED FIRST! Not only that but, MOST of the Muslims who left where not forced out by Israelis! Most left either because THEIR LEADERS told them to get out of the way while those foreign armies slaughtered the Jews:
"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians… but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave.” —PA President Mahmoud Abbas, 1976
We will smash the country. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.” —Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, 1948
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” —Haled al Azm, Syrian
Prime Minister, 1948-1949"
Or they left from their own fears BEFORE the war hit their own doorstep.
"The fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin “were our biggest mistake…Palestinians fled in terror.” —Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948"
"<mansoor>Dont you see what is happening here?"
Yes, I do, I see the Muslim leadership using the right given in Islam to lie for the benefit of their "deen" to pursue selfish, political ends while THEIR OWN PEOPLE get ground up in the middle! Arab/Muslim history in a nutshell.
"“You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by
psychological warfare and population explosion ….I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”
Yasser Arafat to an Arab audience in Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996
“Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong. This intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton.”
—PA Communications Minister
Imad Falouji, March 3, 2001
“We may lose or win [tactically], but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea [euphemism for all of Israel]. Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”
—Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, April 2001
“The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem…is the principal objective of Hezbollah.”
—Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan
Nasrallah, June 2, 2006
“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
—Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, 2002
“Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children.” —Jan Egeland, UN Under- Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs
“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” —Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, art. 2829
“The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.” —Protocol Additional to the Geneva Convention, Article 51 (7)30
“A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose…because the rockets would either be fired at them, or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned
by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.”
—Dr. Mounir Herzallah, July 30, 2006
<mansoor>"This land.. this earth belongs to all human beings. If I had the authority and power i would make them all live side by side with whatever faith they choose. yeah with people like u around this seems to be a fantasy."
See, here is where you show your self to be full of the proverbial bovine end-product. Why do you always have to stoop to making up things? The whole idea of freedom of speech and religion was born HERE, not there… Frankly we in the West did not care what a bunch of Bedouins with oil wells who think they are "Sophisticated" while screwing the maid and marrying a 12 years old thought about us …though we do feel sorry for the property of Muslims that gets so abused, you know, the women and children. But, when someone starts cutting off heads of people just going about their business that gets us a bit upset. When they do over HERE because their wife or daughter is not sufficiently "Islamic" we really get annoyed. Deal with it. I knmow that there is some violence on both sides in India but be honest, in general, who has a less stressful existence in your land, the Hindu who lives in a Muslim village, or the Muslim who lives in the Hindu one?
The radical Christian that gives me a pain in the neck is far less of a concern than the Imam who wants his followers to cut off my head! Surely you can relate to that?
<mansoor>"guydewhitney – (gosh i forgot to capitalize ur name.. did u see that?)"
Yep, and I realize it is just your way of making yourself feel better by putting someone else down. You seem to have a contempt for using polite conventions for OTHER people. But, it is not my worry, you suffer far more BEING that way than I ever will from seeing it.
“Those good Jews brought…prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force.” —Syrian Alawi
notable’s letter to French Prime Minister, June 1936
“No one doubted that the Arabs had benefitted from Jewish immigration. Their numbers had almost doubled between 1917 and 1940, wages had gone up, the standard of living had risen more than anywhere else in the Middle East.” —Historian Walter Laqueur"
<mansoor>"OMG dude… this is heights of foolishness .. After all this are u trying to say that what Israel is doing right now is bringing peace AND what was that – oh prosperity! to the palestinians? somebody stop me i cant control laughing."
Shirk alert! Shirk Alert!!
Khomeinei said that "there is no joy in Islam"!
: – ) Are you serious, or do you KNOW that you are distorting what I said? My point is that IF THE ARABS HAD NOT BEEN and continued to be WRONG, the whole region would have been a good place for everyone to live!
BUT, let us assume you are serious. I know it probably makes you itch but, here come some more inconvenient facts:
“During the 1970s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth-fastest-growing economy in the world—ahead of such ‘wonders’ as Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself.”
—Historian Efraim Karsh"
You remember that time right? When Israel occupied the West Bank after the ’67 debacle; the area Jordan had stolen from the mandate in 48, and then violated the ceasefire by denying most Christians and all Jews access to their holy places!
Weirdly enough that the ONLY TIMES THE Palestinians have had much PEACE AND PROSPERITY was when the British or the Jews were running the place! Go figure!
Oh, and I can’t believe that you are still fighting against our way of life when You, a Muslim in India for crying out loud, can say things like
to a CALIFORNIAN, of all people. That very phrase, in its original form was born not 30 miles from here, in the heart of the Western Wave. Yet you toss it off like you were born to it. It was about as unexpected it would be if I said to YOU
You write well considering you are using a second language. I am glad I never had to learn English as a 2nd…but, I took Russian, and that is about as hard in its own way…
Face it, World Civilization IS Western culture, Western Culture IS World Civilization. Name someplace "civilized" that does NOT base its public institutions on a Western model, and use Western technology and infrastructure? India being a classic example. You have an ancient civilization but little of the progress of the last 300 years and more have come from INSIDE that culture. Instead, advances in the quality of life for ALL teh people, except the top .01%, have come from adopting Western Enlightenment Liberal modes of government and adopting Western science.
The best has come from outside for a long time, no matter what you feel about how they got there…ever think about how YOU got there? : – )
Disagree? Name ONE aspect of WORLD civilization that is NOT Western and came from an influence less than 500 or a thousand years old… The battle is already over, the cell phones in your pockets and the jeans on your ladies told the tale; Bollywood makes it official. : – D
“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an open sore, as an affront to the UN and as a weapon against Israel.” —Ralph Galloway, former Director of UNRWA, August 1958
“All the Arab countries want to keep this problem looking like an open wound.” —Ana Liria-Franch, regional representative in Cairo for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 2003
Had enough yet?
<mansoor>"Nope – unlike you i still retain my senses. you say u have 30 years of experience.. i guess u are twice as old as me."
Actually, I said that I had thirty years of science and theology study; age-wise I am 47.
<mansoor>"Pretty disappointing and yeah… I have no idea what the Arabs are doing. But whatever they are doing apparently it isnt helping either them or anyone else."
Well, at least you admit that, it is a start. I do not expect that you will love those whom your holy book tells you you have to hate, but not ignoring the endless atrocities of Arab leadership on its own people is certainly a good step. How can you accept the reality of history and still only put blame on the Jews? THAT is what I am getting on you.
“If Arabs return to Israel—Israel will cease to exist.” — Gamal Abdel Nasser, President of Egypt, 1961
<mansoor>"see.. this is what i mean. you guys are so stereotypic and dogmatic that you wudnt think twice of labelling an entire race as barbaric."
Egyptians are not Arabs; even if they have been captured by them culturally. I know that the Romans had big problem with Arab treachery and disloyalty (it is not polite to start a battle on one side and change over when you think you are going to lose, something the Arab tribes did routinely) but, I think that Islam has more to do with the complete moral relativity of the Arab world today.
<mansoor>"I challenge you openly to show me one place in this blog where i have said jews are barbaric as a whole. where ever i have spoken it is always ISRAEL – a political country and NOT JEWISM – a religion.. oh please dont pick things out of context and come with a stupid grin with some sentenses picked from this blog."
When did I accuse you of specific anti-Semitism? I challenge YOU to show me ONE Muslim ruled country that isn’t WORSE than Israel in its treatment of ITS OWN CITIZENS, compared to how Israel treats the Palestinians, who declare (for over 60 years) their hatred, and desire to kill them!
<mansoor>"I love those jews, christians, muslims, hindus, atheiists and whomsoever it is who gives a damn about some things like justice, peace and harmony."
Really? Then why do you not speak out about the most corrupt and blindly authoritarian religion on the planet..YOUR OWN? Because your "holy men" will have the mob cut your head off if you are too unruly! That is why.
In MOST religions the deepest criticisms comes from its own people. You often remind me of 17th, and 18th century Christians who were insulted when "dirty, godless Pagans" called them out for their hypocrisies!
<mansoor>"Now am sure you wud come after my throat pointing out the various anti other religious stuff posted here. Just to let you know they are for spiritual, theological and academic interests. Did you see the notice board posted on EVERY PAGE of this blog – on the right side in the narrow pane in blue bold font?
It is this :-
A common forum for all to brag about their beliefs with reason, logic, science and of course love. Haters whether you are Muslim, Christian. Jew or Hindu, pleaze get out immediately!"
Wow, so you are the only one who is allowed to speak in less than glowing terms of any other religion but their own?
Sorry to decline the policy, I am too "Liberal" to submit to unearned authority.
I calls ’em as I sees ’em..and if you intend to do the same, trying to censor those who disagree just points out the weakness of your arguments.