“All Muslims are potential terrorists”, “Islam is a religion of peace”, “the Religious Right is as bad as any terrorist”, “Islam is evil”, “Christian violence is worse than Islamic violence”. All of these statements can be seen, quite validly, by some people as blatant lies. On the other hand, depending on context, the opposite is true; all of these statements can be seen as arguably true. Put aside partisan reflexes and “certainty” for a moment and just ‘Imagine’ how such a paradox would be explained.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. That is not seen as too great of a tragedy by most of the people who make statements like these; the words are slogans or arrows aimed at an enemy, rarely are they sincere efforts to express actual thoughts, feelings or intents. In the light of this sad truth is becomes easier to see how pundits on all sides routinely conflate many effects, motives, natures and “reasons” in anything as dark and subtlety tangled as humanity’s tendency/habit/nature for killing other people “in the name of God”.

The two major elements in conflict in the statements in the first paragraph are:

  1. The nature of humans
  2. The nature of doctrinal scriptures in any particular human religion

“All Muslims are potential terrorists” – Actually, all humans with deep convictions are potential “terrorists”; it comes down to what moral choices a too rigid code of behavior “ordained by God” can put before a person. Anyone with a sincere understanding of the inescapable reality of “I COULD be wrong” is incapable of committing any great harm for their faith.

“Islam is a religion of peace” – Before I get hanged, drowned, burnt at the stake or pressed to death let me explain. The religious/semantic concepts here are familiar to both fundamentalist preacher and Soviet Commissar. In this case ‘peace’ is a word like ‘true’, (Pravda) that has one meaning to the speaker and another to un-indoctrinated listeners. The concept of “peace” in Islam comes down to everyone in reach being happily Muslim or inoffensively and impotently submissive to Muslims. It should also be pointed out that while the it’s scriptures consistently extol individual efforts toward peace, harmony and justice Christian doctrine, also based in scripture, does not even admit the concept of “peace” on Earth until after an apocalyptic Armageddon.

“The religious right are as bad as any terrorist” – O. K., but you have to ignore the massive social, cultural and scriptural differences that make the actual EXPRESSION of the “Our scripture says we are good and just to do (fill in the blank with the heinous crime of your choice), and there is NOTHING you can say or do to change that reality” attitude that many dogmatic religions share a difference between being a ‘pain in the neck’ and cutting someone poor f***’s head off.

“Islam is evil” – It certainly can be; so can total honesty, cheesecake and any given PTA. The one thing that pundits and apologists on all sides seem to selectively mis-remember is that even religions we do not like are protected by the 1st Amendment. Our dilemma, the problem that civil society OUGHT to be trying desperately to solve is how to dispassionately apply the Constitution so as to both preserve the 1st Amendment and rein in Islamic fundamentalists’ ability to “act out” in ways that “break someone’s leg or pick their pocket”. One part of any solution is that any and all laws and rules must be equally applicable and enforceable on any and all religious offenders of secular law who followed their faith into committing positive harm on another person.

“Christian violence is worse than Islamic violence” – That depends on where you are sitting. To the victims over the last 3 hundred years this statement is insultingly false. At the same time, when viewed through the lens of the expected attitudes, actions and reactions for someone desiring to be any accepted form of good Christian the statement is valid; any violence committed is a falling away from the strict path. The core texts of Christianity contain little to no material to stoke the fires of self-righteous human violence in the name of God; that even Christianity and Buddhism have violent pasts says more about human nature than about doctrines that seeks to transcend the darker parts of that nature. Islamic doctrine on the other hand is practically designed to be aggressively self-promoting in an earthly and social as well as religious sense giving freer rein to those who seek justification for their most evil tendencies.

Was that so bad? If anyone’s head exploded I either missed it or they fled to the lobby in time before their PC self-destruct countdown reached zero.

We have a problem people. Let’s stop pretending that we can only operate in the box, or out of the box; THERE IS NO BOX. There is reality, life and hope; patterns to perceive and problems to be solved.

America is not a zero-sum equation!


  1. S. Dear reader, did anyone notice that the terms conservative, liberal, progressive, democrat, republican, Obama, Palin, Sharpton, Limbaugh, MSM, Fox, tea bagger, left-wing and right-wing are missing from this piece?

It is almost as if, now tell me if I am wrong, as if those terms, those ‘boxes’, are useless in such a conversation. Who knows, they might even get in the way of first understanding actual problems and then solving those issues to the general satisfaction of reality, the Constitution and the public, (or republic if you are finicky) for which it stands.

10 (Biased) Examples of Christian Terrorism


jesusgunnedHere we go again, some clueless partisan will now explain how the kid stealing gumballs who will get whipped if he is caught by his folks is far worse than the crack dealer who thinks drive-bys are the best way to deal with competitors or witnesses and whose Mom and Pop will never admit is a nasty sucker instead of their misunderstood little boy.

SATURDAY, AUG 3, 2013 07:00 AM PDT

10 worst examples of Christian or far-right terrorism

Conservatives claim that all terrorists are Muslim, but most violent attacks in the US are carried out by white men

How racist! Did they count the white men who were Muslim terrorists twice?


From Fox News to the Weekly Standard, neoconservatives have tried to paint terrorism as a largely or exclusively Islamic phenomenon. Their message of Islamophobia has been repeated many times since the George W. Bush era: Islam is inherently violent, Christianity is inherently peaceful, and there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist or a white male terrorist. But the facts don’t bear that out. Far-right white male radicals and extreme Christianists are every bit as capable of acts of terrorism as radical Islamists, and to pretend that such terrorists don’t exist does the public a huge disservice. Dzhokhar Anzorovich Tsarnaev and the late Tamerlan Anzorovich Tsarnaev (the Chechen brothers suspected in the Boston Marathon bombing of April 15, 2013) are both considered white and appear to have been motivated in part by radical Islam. And many terrorist attacks in the United States have been carried out by people who were neither Muslims nor dark-skinned.

When white males of the far right carry out violent attacks, neocons and Republicans typically describe them as lone-wolf extremists rather than people who are part of terrorist networks or well-organized terrorist movements. Yet many of the terrorist attacks in the United States have been carried out by people who had long histories of networking with other terrorists. In fact, most of the terrorist activity occurring in the United States in recent years has not come from Muslims, but from a combination of radical Christianists, white supremacists and far-right militia groups.

Given that Ft. Hood shooting by Maj. Hassan was classified as “workplace violence” you might be able to make a case as far as government records go; if you count the times Islamic fundamentalists with normative scripture to quote have been involved in violence as opposed to Bible Verse spouting Christians doing such things the count would be far more one-sided in the other direction. If we expand our focus world-wide there is no question, almost the only people involved with terrorism today are Islamists; the remainder are a radical and unsupported teaspoon in a bucket of Islamic aggression supported by most of the Imams outside the U.S..

Below are 10 of the worst examples of non-Islamic terrorism that have occurred in the United States in the last 30 years.

Well Virginia, at least one sentence in this piece was accurate, too bad the author could not keep to the ‘examples of non-Islamic’ part instead of turning it into a lynch-whitey-and-the-Christians-fest.

1. Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012. The virulent, neocon-fueled Islamophobia that has plagued post-9/11 America has not only posed a threat to Muslims, it has had deadly consequences for people of other faiths, including Sikhs. Sikhs are not Muslims; the traditional Sikh attire, including their turbans, is different from traditional Sunni, Shiite or Sufi attire. But to a racist, a bearded Sikh looks like a Muslim. Only four days after 9/11, Balbir Singh Sodhi, a Sikh immigrant from India who owned a gas station in Mesa, Arizona, was murdered by Frank Silva Roque, a racist who obviously mistook him for a Muslim.

But Sodhi’s murder was not the last example of anti-Sikh violence in post-9/11 America. On Aug. 5, 2012, white supremacist Wade Michael Page used a semiautomatic weapon to murder six people during an attack on a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page’s connection to the white supremacist movement was well-documented: he had been a member of the neo-Nazi rock bands End Empathy and Definite Hate. Attorney General Eric Holder described the attack as “an act of terrorism, an act of hatred.” It was good to see the nation’s top cop acknowledge that terrorist acts can, in fact, involve white males murdering people of color.

Deceitful definitions are the hallmark of this list. Neo-Nazi (National Socialism) is a far Left mind-set, not a far-Right one. The Right thinks of itself as the “owners” of the status quo, the “traditional way things are done”; their problem children use its system to steal power and abuse it. Meanwhile the Left sees itself as the “champion of the underdog” to the point that they excuse virtually any crime or ‘gaming of the system’ that puts one of “their own” over on “the Man.” Sounds like divisive tribalism in PC clothing to me.

The #1 on this list is not about Christians or the far-Right, who tend to be theocrats seeking to own the system and not radicals seeking to destroy it. It is about a far-Left, Neo-Nazi loser who was about as un-Christian as they come as well as being rejected by virtually all of the mainstream Right, Middle and Left. This does not for a moment stop the Leftists from pulling him out as a straw man to use against their opponents in the theft of power from the people.

2. The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009. Imagine that a physician had been the victim of an attempted assassination by an Islamic jihadist in 1993, and received numerous death threats from al-Qaeda after that, before being murdered by an al-Qaeda member. Neocons, Fox News and the Christian Right would have had a field day. A physician was the victim of a terrorist killing that day, but neither the terrorist nor the people who inflamed the terrorist were Muslims. Dr. George Tiller, who was shot and killed by anti-abortion terrorist Scott Roeder on May 31, 2009, was a victim of Christian Right terrorism, not al-Qaeda.

Tiller had a long history of being targeted for violence by Christian Right terrorists. In 1986, his clinic was firebombed. Then, in 1993, Tiller was shot five times by female Christian Right terrorist Shelly Shannon (now serving time in a federal prison) but survived that attack. Given that Tiller had been the victim of an attempted murder and received countless death threats after that, Fox News would have done well to avoid fanning the flames of unrest. Instead, Bill O’Reilly repeatedly referred to him as “Tiller the baby killer.” When Roeder murdered Tiller, O’Reilly condemned the attack but did so in a way that was lukewarm at best.

Keith Olbermann called O’Reilly out and denounced him as a “facilitator for domestic terrorism” and a “blindly irresponsible man.” And Crazy for God author Frank Schaffer, who was formerly a figure on the Christian Right but has since become critical of that movement, asserted that the Christian Right’s extreme anti-abortion rhetoric “helped create the climate that made this murder likely to happen.” Neocon Ann Coulter, meanwhile, viewed Tiller’s murder as a source of comic relief, telling O’Reilly, I don’t really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester.” The Republican/neocon double standard when it comes to terrorism is obvious. At Fox News and AM neocon talk radio, Islamic terrorism is a source of nonstop fear-mongering, while Christian Right terrorism gets a pass.

The Leftist once again gives a pass to the evil of his own sides radicals. while denigrating the Right for the same thing. I think both sides can be guilty of this kind of condoning of crime.

Late-term abortion, the kind Tiller specialized in, is far from cut-and-dried in it’s ethics and morality regardless of your religion, or lack thereof. In a world where 6 month preemies routinely live and prosper the justification for late-term abortion over delivery and adoption start to look pretty damn self-serving. I do not agree in any way with the theocrats on the Right; the only place in the Bible where it even might be talking about abortion is so vague that both sides use it as a proof that their side is the correct one according to scripture. I certainly do not support an individual taking a persons life into their own hands absent a clear and present danger to a person’s life, limb or property. But, we do need to have a conclusive debate on just when a fetus becomes a baby; the present standard seems to be that until a baby breathes air, with permission of the mother, it is a piece of flesh and may be done with as the clinic chooses, i.e. let die and then disposed of or sent to the research labs.

I have always supported a woman’s right to choose, in the first trimester, have been iffy on it in the second and have never supported it except in the case of extreme birth defects or an actual threat to the mother’s life coupled with a likelihood that the baby will be dead or a victim of massive defects in the final three months.

A woman gets to choose, but how many times does society have to allow her to keep choosing? At what point does a woman-with-a-choice become a mother-with-a-responsibility? We would arrest a woman sharing her cigarette and whiskey with her newborn but, we do nothing save frown in disapproval if she does it a day before she delivers; even when the child is ‘wanted‘! This is an indefensible position.

Would I have been willing to shake Tiller’s hand? No.

Do I think he deserved anything but due process of law in his professional life? Again, unequivocally, no.

3. Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008. On July 27, 2008, Christian Right sympathizer Jim David Adkisson walked into the Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee during a children’s play and began shooting people at random. Two were killed, while seven others were injured but survived. Adkisson said he was motivated by a hatred of liberals, Democrats and gays, and he considered neocon Bernard Goldberg’s book, 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America, his political manifesto. Adkisson (who pleaded guilty to two counts of first-degree murder and is now serving life in prison without parole) was vehemently anti-abortion, but apparently committing an act of terrorism during a children’s play was good ol’ Republican family values. While Adkisson’s act of terrorism was reported on Fox News, it didn’t get the round-the-clock coverage an act of Islamic terrorism would have garnered.

Here we have the classic partisan trick of taking some lone-wolf radical and pretending that they represent the mainstream of their opposition; all parties in America are guilty to some extent or another but, this list get nauseating inn how disingenuous it is in it’s attempt to tar the opposition with a brush of distortion and concealed facts.

4. The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994. To hear the Christian Right tell it, there is no such thing as Christian terrorism. Tell that to the victims of the Army of God, a loose network of radical Christianists with a long history of terrorist attacks on abortion providers. One Christian Right terrorist with ties to the Army of God was Paul Jennings Hill, who was executed by lethal injection on Sept. 3, 2003 for the murders of abortion doctor John Britton and his bodyguard James Barrett. Hill shot both of them in cold blood and expressed no remorse whatsoever; he insisted he was doing’s God’s work and has been exalted as a martyr by the Army of God.

So, what he is saying Virginia is that the “Army of God” is far more radical than even the “Rev.” Phelps’ group of anti-gay “activists”? What exactly does this say about mainstream Christianity in relation to the normative schools of doctrine within Islam? Is there even a correlation?

5. The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996. Paul Jennings Hill is hardly the only Christian terrorist who has been praised by the Army of God; that organization has also praised Eric Rudolph, who is serving life without parole for a long list of terrorist attacks committed in the name of Christianity. Rudolph is best known for carrying out the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics—a blast that killed spectator Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111 others. Hawthorne wasn’t the only person Rudolph murdered: his bombing of an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama in 1998 caused the death of Robert Sanderson (a Birmingham police officer and part-time security guard) and caused nurse Emily Lyons to lose an eye.

Rudolph’s other acts of Christian terrorism include bombing the Otherwise Lounge (a lesbian bar in Atlanta) in 1997 and an abortion clinic in an Atlanta suburb in 1997. Rudolph was no lone wolf: he was part of a terrorist movement that encouraged his violence. And the Army of God continues to exalt Rudolph as a brave Christian who is doing God’s work.

The Army of God is hardly an example of the kind of “Christian” that even the typical ‘radical Christian’ can accept as normative. In Islam, Sunni and Shiite, the norm is support of honor killings, gays executed, and apostates murdered, all with the sanction the Qur’an or ahadith.

Just imagine how much worse the Irish ‘Troubles‘ would have been if there had been hordes of Catholic priests and bishops running around IReland preaching support for the IRA’s violence. Of course the new Irish “converts” to radicalism would have found it confusing when they realized they had joined an atheistic, Marxist group (IRA)!

6. The murder of Barnett Slepian byJames Charles Kopp, Oct. 23, 1998. Like Paul Jennings Hill, Eric Rudolph and Scott Roeder, James Charles Kopp is a radical Christian terrorist who has been exalted as a hero by the Army of God. On Oct. 23, 1998 Kopp fired a single shot into the Amherst, NY home of Barnett Slepian (a doctor who performed abortions), mortally wounding him. Slepian died an hour later. Kopp later claimed he only meant to wound Slepian, not kill him. But Judge Michael D’Amico of Erin County, NY said that the killing was clearly premeditated and sentenced Kopp to 25 years to life. Kopp is a suspect in other anti-abortion terrorist attacks, including the non-fatal shootings of three doctors in Canada, though it appears unlikely that Kopp will be extradited to Canada to face any charges.

And which mainstream, normalized Christian sect is it that supports this kind of radicalism? Army of God? A group so radical that the groups considered radical by the mainstream think they are over-the-line is now normative Christianity?

7. Planned Parenthood bombing, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994. Seldom has the term “Christian terrorist” been used in connection with John C. Salvi on AM talk radio or at Fox News, but it’s a term that easily applies to him. In 1994, the radical anti-abortionist and Army of God member attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Brookline, Massachusetts, shooting and killing receptionists Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols and wounding several others. Salvi was found dead in his prison cell in 1996, and his death was ruled a suicide. The Army of God has exalted Salvi as a Christian martyr and described Lowney and Nichols not as victims of domestic terrorism, but as infidels who got what they deserved. The Rev. Donald Spitz, a Christianist and Army of God supporter who is so extreme that even the radical anti-abortion group Operation Rescue disassociated itself from him, has praised Salvi as well.

So, the only praise this guy got was from a group that Radical Right groups consider too radical? How is this an indictment against any sect of mainstream Christianity? All of the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence endorse honor killing, the execution of gays and apostates as well as other doctrines equally abhorrent to the modern civilised human.

8. Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas, Feb. 18, 2010. When Joseph Stack flew a plane into the Echelon office complex (where an IRS office was located), Fox News’ coverage of the incident was calm and matter-of-fact. Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa seemed to find the attack amusing and joked that it could have been avoided if the federal government had followed his advice and abolished the IRS. Nonetheless, there were two fatalities: Stack and IRS employee Vernon Hunter. Stack left behind a rambling suicide note outlining his reasons for the attack, which included a disdain for the IRS as well as total disgust with health insurance companies and bank bailouts. Some of the most insightful coverage of the incident came from Noam Chomsky, who said that while Stack had some legitimate grievances—millions of Americans shared his outrage over bank bailouts and the practices of health insurance companies—the way he expressed them was absolutely wrong.

All of which adds up to his being more in tune with Leftists like Chomsky than with conservatives or Christians; another strawman; unless the author’s argument is that only white Lefties commit terrorism.

Of course, Virginia, there are bad people on the Right but, being Right Wingers they will work the system from inside rather than game it from outside.

9. The murder of Alan Berg, June 18, 1984. One of the most absurd claims some Republicans have made about white supremacists is that they are liberals and progressives. That claim is especially ludicrous in light of the terrorist killing of liberal Denver-based talk show host Alan Berg, a critic of white supremacists who was killed with an automatic weapon on June 18, 1984. The killing was linked to members of the Order, a white supremacist group that had marked Berg for death. Order members David Lane (a former Ku Klux Klan member who had also been active in the Aryan Nations) and Bruce Pierce were both convicted in federal court on charges of racketeering, conspiracy and violating Berg’s civil rights and given what amounted to life sentences.

Robert Matthews, who founded the Order, got that name from a fictional group in white supremacist William Luther Pierce’s anti-Semitic 1978 novel, The Turner Diaries—a book Timothy McVeigh was quite fond of. The novel’s fictional account of the destruction of a government building has been described as the inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995.

I don’t know about their being “liberal” but, they certainly are NOT aligned with ANY mainstream grouping on either the Left or Right! William Luther Pierce’s own words show that clearly; the closest is the anti-semitism shared with the Left-of-Center Left and radical theocrats from the far Right.

Liars and hypocrites: those are terms that apply pretty well to every politician in the Western world these days, and the Republicans are no better than the Democrats.”


“…stop listening to the hypocritical cant of the liberals and the mindless ramblings of the conservatives.”


“..But when democracy instead becomes a threat to continued Jewish rule, they are just as fervent anti-democrats.”


“… The government we have in Washington now … cannot and should not be reformed or repaired or salvaged. It should be pulled down and have a stake driven through its heart. Everyone who is a part of it should be dealt with in the same way. …… If you want to make an impression on anyone in Washington today, you must convince him that you are willing and able either to hurt him or to help him.”

Clearly this movement is not aligned with conservatives, liberals, Republicans, Democrats or anyone else interested in evolution of society over revolution by a disgruntled minority.

Especially disturbing is when a partisan just makes things up and puts them in the mouth of their opponent; unjustly and dishonestly hanging them with a rope they had nothing to do with making. The last one ion the list full of it, from start to finish.

10. Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995. Neocons and Republicans grow angry and uncomfortable whenever Timothy McVeigh is cited as an example of a non-Islamic terrorist…

What I noticed was more of a confusion about why the LEft insists that an anti-government, self-declared agnostic must be conflated with conservative Christians. That hardly adds up to denying that any self-declared “Christian” is without faults.

…Pointing out that a non-Muslim white male [G DeW: WHY do you have to drag race into this? There are plenty of white Muslims in prison for terrorist crimes.] carried out an attack as vicious and deadly as the Oklahoma City bombing doesn’t fit into their narrative that only Muslims and people of color are capable of carrying out terrorist attacks. Neocons will claim that bringing up McVeigh’s name during a discussion of terrorism is a “red herring” that distracts us from fighting radical Islamists, but that downplays the cruel, destructive nature of the attack. [Emphasis added]…

There is one problem with this; There is no mainstream political organisation, Left, Right or Middle, that says any such thing. They all focus on the fundamentalist and radical mentalities.

It is well known on the Right that the majority of American Muslims have absolutely no faith in the representation of the national Muslim “advocacy” groups like CAIR and MPAC. The problem actually is not the perpetrators of terrorist acts, it is the numerous fundamentalist-minded Imams who are the initial radical element; using their authority as religious leaders to cherry-pick from actual scripture and doctrine only what they need to radicalize individual Muslims whenever they can.

“…Prior to the al-Qaeda attacks of 9/11, the Oklahoma City bombing McVeigh orchestrated was the most deadly terrorist attack in U.S. history: 168 people were killed and more than 600 were injured. When McVeigh drove a truck filled with explosives into the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, his goal was to kill as many people as possible. Clearly, McVeigh was not motivated by radical Islam; rather, he was motivated by an extreme hatred for the U.S. government and saw the attack as revenge for the Ruby Ridge incident of 1992 and the Waco Siege in 1993. He had white supremacist leanings as well (when he was in the U.S. Army, McVeigh was reprimanded for wearing a “white power” T-shirt he had bought at a KKK demonstration). McVeigh was executed on June 11, 2001. He should have served life without parole instead, as a living reminder of the type of viciousness the extreme right is capable of.”

Here we run up against the Leftist’s cherished fantasy that the KKK and all of the most violent and virulent racism from American history came from Republicans when the truth is that until the late 50’s and early 60’s when Federal court decisions made their legislative foot dragging on integration moot did the Left STOP being the ideology of the Black-hater, Jew-hater or indeed the “other”-haters they had always been; at least in public, there is no sign that the racism of the Left has done anything but morph into a more subtle and slimy form.

Before the Civil War the people in the North that most opposed abolition were Democrats; in the South the ones who supported it were Republican. During the Civil War (or The War, as Southerners like to refer to it to this day) The people in the North who opposed the war were Democrats. After the war was over the KKK was formed by, once again, Democrats.

In the 50’s it was Democrats who perpetrated the famous acts of violence against peaceful protestors; Gov. Wallace – Dem, Bull Connor – Dem, MLK’s assassin – Democrat… the list is endless. Republicans have their faults to be sure, any partisan grouping is going to have them running out of their ears but, if you hang someone, use a rope that they made, not one you crafted to lynch the innocent.


Guy DeWhitney on Government by Heretics Crusaders

My ideal of government:
Un-self-consciously, individual humans that are raised to feel a profound duty to protect all aspects of seldom/individuality that neither “picks someone’s pocket nor breaks someone’s leg” and a profound respect for the notion that we are all one and what goes around not only comes around, it DIRECTLY affects us; i.e. “successful” assholery damages a psyche’s ability to make ‘good’ choices in the future.Guy DeWhitneys Heretics Crusade

Who is Right vs. What is Right: Finding Solutions Instead of Being Part of the Problem

Heretics Crusade by Guy DeWhitney

I actually see a sea change happening in the West regarding Islamic aggressions. It will most certainly still be a long and twisted road but, I do think that it is inevitable that the Western ways will prevail.

The total flip-flop of governmental concerns regarding potential violence from Islam and Christianity in the eyes of the law is utterly insane. It only makes sense to formulate an objective, constitutionally sound, policy/strategy for identifying and dealing with all ideologically driven extremist groups that might pose a threat to anyone’s life, limb or property.

Unless we wish to dispose of the First Amendment we must always forbid to the government the ability to say “This is a real religion but, that one is false” or we will quickly find that one denomination/trend in theology has become dominant. I for one would rather keep my freedoms, even if it is a harder road.

The best test I have ever seen for identifying worrisome religious groups is


I have edited it a bit for space and clarity…

In order to utilize the frame, assign each item a value from 1 to 10 points, with 1 being “Low” and 10 being “High“. Religions with total scores towards the high end of the scale are more than likely un-healthy groups for anyone.

1. Internal Control:
Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

2. External Control:
Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.

3. Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s):
Amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations;…

4. Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members:
Amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

5. Dogma:
Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” …

6. Recruiting:
Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.

7. Front Groups:
Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.

8. Wealth:
Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

9. Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s):
Amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.

10. Sexual Favoritism:
Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s).

11. Censorship:
Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

12. Isolation:
Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

13. Dropout Control:
Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

15. Paranoia:
Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

16. Grimness:
Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

17. Surrender of Will:
Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

18. Hypocrisy:
amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

From the Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (or ABCDEF) v2.6 © 1979, 2001 by Isaac Bonewits

As near as I can tell, with the most generous of judgment possible, normative Islam. scores 140!

With an objective test such as this it is possible for law enforcement to merely point to a high score when asked about why a certain religious community is being monitored for actual criminal activity; it worked it Ireland, the key is to enforce it strictly and enforce it strictly across the board!
Ideas instead of Ideologies!


Huffington Post’s Reverend Kimball Bears False Witness Against Christianity and Judaism

 Who would Jesus behead?

This, Virginia, is why I do not put any great weight on my own ordination; any fool can be ordained and seeking God has nothing to do with it; witness the blatant bearing of false witness to further a political agenda exercised by this so-called minister. Here a so called minister of God is even bearing false witness against his own religion, if you can believe it!

Here we have an analysis of the ranting’s of one Charles Kimball, the director of Religious Studies at the University of Oklahoma and a Baptist minister regarding the culpability of Christians and Christianity for the Oslo massacre and bombing by mass murderer (alleged, I think we are supposed to say Virginia) Anders Breivik.

The horrific events in Norway this past weekend provide yet another powerful teachable moment in the ongoing and increasingly dangerous saga of religion becoming lethal.

I can’t imagine how. Unless the good reverend’s point is somehow that the actions of non-Christian religious folk caused Breivik to snap I don’t see the point.  Breivik very pointedly explained that he was not, would not be, and did not recommend being a religious Christian; to him “Christian” seems to be no more than a catch-all term for non-Muslim of European culture! He also never used Christian theology in his writings to base his actions upon.

Indeed it would be hard to find any Christian “church” today, anywhere, that would be able to propound a theology based in the teachings of Jesus that would support the killing of anyone merely to make a point, let alone try to justify the slaughter of children to make said point. Even Fred Phelps and his sad band of haters do not promote violence, other than making decent people wish for an excuse to righteously kick their asses. Sadly, Phelps and Co. have been too clever so far to give the rest of us an excuse to use our laws to put them away… This is the price you pay for freedom.

Reality aside, facts aside, respect for his own religion and co-religionists aside, the good Rev. wants to use this as a teaching moment. Such aggressive compassion surely must be a good thing, right, Virginia? Right?

The murderous rampage by Anders Behring Breivik brings several important lessons more clearly into view.

Indeed, it does, but not in the way you seem to feel, Sir!

First, religion is an extraordinarily powerful and pervasive force in human society. Throughout history, people within various religions have been motivated to their highest and noblest best actions. At the same time, some of the worst things human beings have done to one another have been done in the name of or justified by religion. Religion is a powerful force inspiring constructive and destructive behavior among believers.

Right, but what does this have to do with a man, Breivik, who justified his evil with secular arguments, and did not use any religion’s message or theology to base his horror upon?

Second, we live in a world with many weapons of mass destruction. Quite apart from the horrors associated with chemical, nuclear or biological weapons, we now know that a devious plan can utilize automatic weapons, fertilizer, box knives and commercial airplanes as weapons of mass destruction. Attacking a summer camp for youth vividly reminds us that there are many ways people bent on doing great harm can accomplish their goal.

As far as I can tell that last paragraph was no more than background music for an ongoing apologia for the “free speech is good, but it can go too far” crowd who equate free speech with inoffensive (to them) speech.

Third, we now know with certainty that it doesn’t take many people to wreak havoc on a wide scale. Breivik may have acted alone or within a small circle of cohorts, as did Timothy McVeigh. Nineteen men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11. Small numbers of zealots who are convinced they know what God wants for them and for everyone else are capable of almost anything.

Notice how the oh, so honest Revd. throws in McVeigh, another secular terrorist who explicitly rejected any theological grounds for his crimes against humanity to balance the unarguably theocratic 9/11 terrorists, among others too numerous to count. What this compulsion he shares with other Leftists, to beat his breast and declare “We are just as bad!” instead of solving the problems, is all about is simply beyond me.

I can’t think of any modern religious terror committed by other than lone madmen at all except for the Islamic kind… Even the Irish terrorists who divided on religious lines never used Christianity to justify what they did, nor did the clergy in any way justify or support them, in fact for the most part they were Marxists whom the local Catholic clergy would not trust any more than they would Protestants!! The same can be said about abortion clinic bombers, they are lone wolves and, are not backed up by mainstream theology or communities in any way.

Not surprisingly, many preachers and pundits who have spewed hateful rhetoric and fanned the flames of Islamophobia are now scrambling to disassociate themselves, their published statements about Islam and Muslims, and what some call “true” Christianity from the actions of Breivik.

No my dear wolf in minister’s clothing, you are the one who is scrambling to tar innocent people with the taint of Breivik’s evil in order to further your own agenda  That is the very epitome of bearing false witness against your neighbor! I highly doubt even one of the people you seek to demonize ever called for violence against Muslims in any way; certainly none of the “influential” ones have; they certainly did not promote violence against the enablers of Islamism, which seems to be what Breivik thought he was doing in the dark buzzing cloud pretending to be his soul. At the same time, others quoted by Breivik have promoted violent and totalitarian schemes… but they are never mentioned by the oh, so righteous Reverend.

But words matter. Examine the path taken by violent extremists claiming inspiration from Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism and you can trace connections with the fiery rhetoric of influential, sometimes self-appointed leaders in madrasas, in books, at religious rallies, on websites and the like. There are consequences when cocksure Christians or Muslim militants proclaim God’s truth while stoking fear of the “other” in the minds of their would-be followers.

Here “Rev.” Kimball is bending over backwards until his spine snaps to attempt to “level the playing field” between Islam and other religions when it comes to directly inspiring violence. He fails to make his case.  Show me the violent Christian, Jewish or Buddhist movement, in the lifetime of this nation, that was encouraged by “fiery rhetoric” from “influential” books, churches, synagogues and leaders? Can you think of any in the last two hundred years? I can’t, just a handful of nutjobs who are universally excoriated by their own co-religionists.  No-one complained about what kind of burial Jim Jones got, no Christian thought it important how a lunatic mass murderer should be buried!

Meanwhile, the good reverend goes back to his “free speech is bad in the wrong hands” theme. The wrong hands here of course being hands that are possessed by someone who disagrees with the enlightened view of Revd. Kimball.

While there are no easy answers or simple solutions, there are constructive ways to move forward in our increasingly interconnected and interdependent world community. It begins with education.

Study programs in schools and colleges, churches, mosques and synagogues are essential. Interfaith dialogue and engagement with people of different religious and cultural backgrounds are invaluable ways to dispel generic fears and help humanize the “other.” All across the U.S., Christians, Muslims and Jews are working together to build Habitat for Humanity houses and work on common problems such as crime and drug abuse within their communities. These kinds of intentional efforts at education and cooperation are vital at the local, national and international level. We need more and more such endeavors in the U.S., not only for the well-being of our communities, but also as a way to model the kind of healthy religious pluralism our future requires.

The truly sad part about Kimball’s misguided view is that the above actions are not being done, and never will be done by the kinds of religious extremists he worries about; not the handful of Christian ones and, not the thousands upon thousands of Muslim ones. At most they will use such activities as a smokescreen while they pursue their theocratic agenda’s unmolested.  I can only assume that either Mr. Kimball’s seminary did not offer a real course in history or, that he flunked it.

He also seems to be guilty of the sin of Liberal Racism. To that mindset the “underclasses” of past racist philosophies have not vanished, they are poor, helpless children that must take under protection, for their own good.

Because they are “of the oppressed”, a state of permanent victimhood, their actions do not make a difference compared to the actions of the evil, dominant White Man from Europe and America that is Kimball’s real devil, and God.

He will never compare the fruit of Muslim and Christian fairly, because then he would be forced to speak of Islam (from the perspective of any devout Christian clergyman) as a religion that might stem from God but, that has been mired for most of its existence in a theo/political system of worldly evil.

The path to a more hopeful and healthy future also requires people of faith and goodwill to speak out clearly and directly against extremists of all stripes.

I can’t argue with that. That is what the Heretics Crusade is.

Although most of us were taught by our parents not to talk about religion or politics in public, the stakes today are far too high for deferential silence or casual indifference. Ignorance is not bliss; silence is proving deadly.

Once again, I agree, I don’t think anyone reasonable would try. But, that is not the pitch, that is just the windup with a lean to the left to imply a slider, this next bit is the pitch; a spitball, knuckleball covered in tar.

Just as many people continue to call on Muslims to speak out forcefully and unambiguously against violence and extremism, so too must Christians and Jews openly challenge those who advocate extremism and foster hatred in the name of religion. This means, for example, naming names and identifying the theological and political positions of Jewish fundamentalists and Muslim extremists who block potential paths to peace in Israel/Palestine.

The problem with this little gem is that the Jewish and Christian communities in this country as a whole have always stood against anyone who used violence and extremism to advance or defend their faiths! It has been held a virtual truth that to do so is to abrogate that faith entirely!

Just what more is it that they are supposed to do when the mainstream Islamic community complains about how Osama Bin Laden was buried after assuring us for years that he was not a “real Muslim”?

For me, as a follower of Jesus and a Christian minister, it means strongly disagreeing with TV preachers with political clout such as John Hagee and Rod Parsley. They have every right to espouse their religious and political worldviews. But their ill-informed and hateful rhetoric about Islam and Muslims, as well as their certainty that Jesus will be arriving in the next couple of weeks, has very real consequences.

That is nice Chuck, when are you going to do it? This whole piece reads like it is aimed against free speech and, to me, seems to be intended to gently brush Oslo/Breivik tar on anti-Jihadist bloggers and writers who have never propounded, or invoked, an ideology of violence; yet gives a pass to Breivik “inspiring” figures and writers (in his own words) who happen to be on your side of the war in your mind. You haven’t even given us a clear idea of just what they say that you oppose! If that last paragraph was really the point of your post then, I have to say I think your point fell flat.

The mind-boggling terrorism manifest in Norway will continue to provide hard but important lessons about the dangers all around us and the need to find more constructive ways to move forward in the 21st century. It is a stark reminder that we share a fragile planet where ignorance, hate and fear can link easily with religious worldviews and produce horrific consequences.

Yes Virginia, the world is a dangerous place, especially if you equate the evil acts of lone scumbags with the evil acts of organized and ideologically driven scumbags who are numerous and active instead of isolated and sporadic.

Answering Mansoor Muhammed of Christ and Mohammed: Civilization is a fragile Gift, Don’t break it.

Here is the latest in our attempt to debate the blogger in India who runs the site.  As the exchange has developed I was beginning to think that I mistook Mansoor for a solid Islamist; it seemed he might really be just one significant disillusionment from being a moderate who still supports the traditional to a real Western-style moderate.
I am about ready to give up that position. Mansoor Muhammed seems to be completely unaware of the fact that everything he considers “decent” about his position comes from Western ethics and philosophy. The only thing about his view of the future peace that fits traditional Islam is his fantasy that Traditional Islam is not the biggest threat to the kind of tolerant, multi-cultural utopia he envisions.
Imagine what a non “under-fatwa-for-heresy” Imam would say about most of this response to my recitations of facts regarding Israel; I will put my reaction in parenthesis next to each line in this list to give my own version of an “ideal and fair” settlement of the Palestinian Mandate dispute.

Israel – Palestine Peace Proposal

Let me begin this article with my stand on the Israel – Palestine issue.

1.   I do not wish the Arabs to send Israel to oblivion.
And, despite the words you tried to cram down my throat, I have never said I WANTED a single Human killed for anything less than “right now murderous attack” self-defense. That said, I agree with the sages who said that to have peace you must be ready to go to war. I don’t have to like it, I just have to accept what I need to do to fight those who would kill EVERYONE that they can not control.

2.   I do not wish to evict the Jews from middle east.
That is a good thing, given that many of them have been almost completely ethnically cleansed already from numerous countries. Completely from Saudi (enslaved by the House of Saud) Arabia.
I hear Arabs mostly got to stay in Israel if they did not take up arms in ’48 or run away.  The ones that were expelled for merely being on the side that decided on civil war I have limited sympathy for.  But given how they all were raped by the Arab leadership and stuffed into camps forever and ever and ever to be used as political tools gives me back most of it; at least for the ones who would rather see their children grow to be happy adults than use them to bribe Allah to allow them into heaven with their children’s body in  47 pieces across Tel Aviv.

3.   Though the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was illegal, i know that this cannot be undone.  Keeping world peace in mind  I wish that Israel do something good for Palestinians and middle east in general in return of the land that they stole.
Here is where we seriously disagree.  You have accepted whole a version of history that has been invented and re-invented several times over 6 decades in full view of a short-attention-span world. I have personally witnessed a fair amount of the actual events, heard what the participants said THEN.
The creation of the State of Israel was completely legal by the only authority that exited in the world at the time with even limited recognized sovereignty over the area. Take it in Sir, There has never been a country, nation or even a people living there who called themselves Palestinian Arabs, Or Palestinian Muslims; this did not change until the nineteen SIXTIES, as a tactic to gain sympathy for the “occupied” people, who in fact live on disputed land that is not EITHER Arab or Jewish until a final settlement ACCORDING TO ALL INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT HAS JURISDICTION. It is also a plain fact that none of the Jewish settlements are technically illegal in the disputed territories. Since the establishment of the final Mandate for Palestine in 1920 the Jews have an internationally recognized RIGHT to settle as individuals anywhere from the Jordan to the sea; what is not given by the Mandate itself is sovereignty over NON-Jews ALREADY there. There was envisioned a population transfer, where Jews from Arab areas would change places with Arabs from Jewish areas to create two COHERENT AND SELF CONSISTENT nations. In fact the Palestinian state WAS created, but not in Israel, it is called Jordan today and it was created from the Palestinian Mandate specifically to be a larger part given to MUSLIMS as a bribe to stop opposing the will of the entire international community. As far as I have heard they are still there unmolested for as long as they do not send their tanks toward the border with intent to slaughter Jews.

4.    I  wish Israel to get back to the borders it had in 1947-48.
Really? Here they are:
Please take note of the LEGAL IMPLICATIONS of the fact that the UN Partition PLAN was rejected by the Arabs, who started a civil, then a conventional WAR to defy a legal UN mandate.
By doing so they also left the 1920 to 1948 (YOUR selected date) Mandate border as the Last Legal Border ™.
The Jordanians attempted to take and hold Jerusalem which, it was hoped up to that time, could be an international city open to, but also neutral to, all three Abrahamic faiths.  The Jordanians agreed at the ceasefire (’49 to ’67 map; Arabs were in retreat at the time the lines were frozen) to allow free access to the Holy sites, but never allowed Jews access, and barely allowed properly dhimmi-churched Christians until 1967 when Egypt attempted to finish what they failed to do in ’48.
As you can see by the next map (’67 to ’73), that was not the best idea.

5.    I wish for peace between the two states.
But, one of the biggest obstacles to peace is that the Arab factions have, since 1917 when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after their failed support of Imperialistic Germany in WWI, consistently failed to even try to form a stable government for the administration of a state that has as its goal the WELFARE of its citizens, as opposed to using them as fodder in a long, patient war. The entire chain of pseudo-governing “resistance” Thuggiganizations since Arafat’s appearance admitted inventing the CONCEPT of a “Palestinian People”, solely Arab and Muslim, AS A TOOL TO GAIN SUPPORT IN THEIR BATTLE AGAINST ISRAEL.
This is not a disputed item, it is public record!
Until recently the plan has always been for Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon to annex the appropriate pieces once Israel is broken up “from the Jordan to the Sea“…. as they attempted to do in ’48, ’67, and ’73 without once setting a goal of “freeing” the “Palestinian People” to form a self-determining Muslim state; a locally self-sovereign Arab state where none had ever existed before.

6.    I  wish that both Palestine and Israel to have good relations.
Assuming we can all agree to settle just where is Israel and where is “Palestine” and the local Arabs will accept it and recognize it not continue their Jihad against the resultant Israeli state I can agree with that whole-heartedly.  Last time I checked though the party line across the Muslim world was No. No. No. on all three propositions.

7.    The Christians, Jews and the Muslims – all have the right on Jerusalem. I wish Jerusalem to be a multi – religious capital of the world.
So did a lot of people, including Israel, before 1948! You would have to have a chat with YOUR leaders to get the rationalization as to why it is not one now and for the last 60 years.
This is a special sore spot because of the horrible record modern Muslims have for administering non-Muslim pilgrims in areas they have responsibility for, such as the Temple Mount. Especially since Islam has by far the weakest RELIGIOUS identification with the city. Sorry to hurt your feelings but, Westerners do not care what your faith tells you, the historical evidence all points to no significant connection of Islam with Jerusalem except as its use TWICE (an ancient Muslim leader under ban from Mecca and the modern Palestinian movements) as a political tool to be discarded as soon as its usefulness abates.

8.    Jerusalem shouldn’t be under any single religious entity.
Once again, it has been the Muslim leaders who have prevented this from happening; go ask THEM why they don’t move that Jerusalem be declared international territory.

9.    I wish that the Arabs extend the hand of peace by accepting the Israeli borders that it had when it was newly created in 1948. From Israel’s end, I wish it hand over all lands that it occupied in 1967. From american end, I wish it to aid Palestine as much as it aids Israel economically and politically and I wish that America stop all military aid to Israel on the slightest inclination of peace from either sides.
That is cool by me! Here is the last legal border before the Arabs declared the UN partition plan dead and attacked Israel with five armies. I will even support making Jerusalem an international city if the Muslims give up sole control of the Temple Mount (which was GIVEN to as a gesture of goodwill by the Jews).

10.  After this is done, I wish each of the parties to let go of the past and focus on the future in turning Middle – east into a Paradise from the hell that they have made out of it.
That should not be a problem, the Israelis have tried numerous times to get the Arabs to allow them to teach them how to make the desert and waste blossom as they did with the land they had legally purchased from its absentee owners, mostly foreign Muslims; mostly Arab themselves -, isn’t Arab solidarity a wonderful thing!!!
I would just love to be a fly on the wall when Mansoor gets up after Jummah in Hyderabad and proposes his “solution” to his fellow worshippers and Imams; as long as I am hiding out of reach of flying objects, blood and gunfire.
Now, after demonstrating to us all how enlightened and loving he is, Mansoor will proceed to demonstrate that  the devout and gentle Muslim he is has no problem demonizing, insulting and in general bearing false witness against a non-Muslim; Me.

I recieved a response from a 47 year old anti – palestinian  guy going by the name Dewhitney from riverside, California. who claims to know the all truth about the middle east mess.
First lie: I have never said anything close to this, I just have more historical information than Mansoor’s ideological leash holders have allowed him to receive. I hold no grudges; I too would like peace in the region. Not the peace of Submission, but the peace of Enlightenment.
He doesnt seem to care about solving the ongoing crisis but instead rattles on and on about how inhuman, barbaric, terroristic and murderous the palestini side is. He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while  at the same time he wouldn’t mind someone obliterating Islam and the muslims off the face of the earth.
As nasty a libel as this is I almost fell off my chair laughing when I imagined Mansoor typing away, a holy smile on his face, “…He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while  at the same time… and he suddenly realizes THERE IS NO “While at the same time”. So he invented a blood libel (he must have stolen my copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Lie-On) and inserted it into my mouth; I hope he at least washed his hands first!
He labels Islam and the muslims to be the sole root cause of the entire issue.  The following is his reply and my response to it.  Find his previous replies and my responses Here. Scroll down the page to find his comments.

He Quotes me – “I have no god – damn idea what u believ in. you cant just say this land belongs to them that and land belongs to them etc.”

Dewhitney – What is your point, oh insulting one who claims others are being nasty?
When the Ottomans still ruled the area a census showed very few Arabs or Jews in the Judea/Samaria area…only AFTER the Ottoman empire collapsed did the British come in to administer the area, there was NO SHRED OF A LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT after the Turks left. Because of this the vast majority of EVERYONE in the area is descended from fairly recent immigrants. NEITHER side has a “native” claim though; the Arabs have NO claim that is not attached to warlike conquest, while the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Jerusalem.In any case the Jewish “clam” was established far, far earlier than any Arab claims.
When the British established a civilized regime and the Zionists started steadily moving there, THEN the Arab population rose due to the new jobs from the industry of the new rulers and the new immigrants.
This is all easily confirmed public data my dear friend who puts others down as nasty and arrogant all the while being as nasty and arrogant as he can manage.
One of the regions administered by the British was set aside as a place where Jews would have a RIGHT to SETTLE (not RULE the Arabs), simply a permanent right to live in their ancient homeland.
Me – Right to live in ancient homeland?????
Past is past… stop using what happened 2000 – 3000 years ago as an excuse to say Israel has a right to settle there….
You miss the point; only sovereignty ended in 93 AD; Jewish residency never ceased. If all the Arabs and Jews whose grandparents came to The Mandate and settled from 1850 to 1948 went to their respective homelands both Jewish and Arab populations would drop by 90% or more! Under the Ottomans it was a wasteland, and hardly worth the Caliph’s bother.
First the British then, the Zionists BUILT the infrastructure and the jobs and reclaimed the land that then drew many Arabs to the area over those decades.
No ONE has the right to settle down in a place where people are already living since hundreds of years…BUT they can difinitely come and live … mingle with the crowd … be one with them as brothers as any ordinary people. But you dont call this as “right to settle” as if you are demanding land back. I guess you didnt read my point about aborigines, dravidians, native south africans and red indians – all of whom were evicted systematically.
But the Arabs said No, and shot up things. So the UN tried the Partition Plan, and the Arabs said HELL NO, and launched full scale war.
Don’t blame ME for the historical records of MUSLIMS, TURKS, JEWS and BRITISH from this time.
By the pains that you are going through to defend this dogmatic stupidity i assume that have packed your bags to get out as soon as any of the local natives comes  knocking your door singing the “right to settle down” song.
To each his own, I happen to hope you might actually be able to lift your head from the floor under your Imam’s foot and look at undisputed historical data for yourself, without having to let said Imam TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK about it.
The Jews could have settled in middle east as any other normal ordinary people.
Tell that to the Arabs who lived then in the entire region, OUTSIDE of the Mandate, who sent FIVE ARMIES to make sure that would not happen. There would have been NO STATE of Israel if the Arabs had not rejected their being allowed to have a right to settle. No Arab STATE OF ANY KIND EXISTED THERE. There was Ottoman control, then chaos, then the British took responsibility for keeping the region from falling into desperate poverty and anarchy; did a good job too, many Arabs moved to “the City of Jobs” from 1917 to the ’30s!
Your Imams might have you convinced the sky is yellow with polka dots but, all  the OBJECTIVE evidence all points to its being blue most of the time. Your refusal to moderate your opinion based on accepted facts is a bit disturbing. when you then accuse ME of genocidal intentions you go far beyond simply disturbing, you become pathetic in your religious and cultural insecurity.
Now you would say …yeah .. the israelis did came with sweet smiles on their faces with humbleness dripping all over but the barbaric animalistic arab apes shooed them away..right? Coudlnt they have just come there and lived .. as normal ordinary human beings..????
They did.
but no no..they had to play the religion card and carve lands out of 5 countries and announce to the world with pomp and show that this land is theirs only ( oh sorry i mean .. the right to settle..)
Do you realize you are telescoping about 5 years of complex negotiations that the Arabs REJECTED into some kind of Jewish invasion and declaration of Israel inside a nation you imagine, but that never has existed yet!
aaaah …….but i guess you didnt know that Land bought by the Jewish National Fund is held in the name of the Jewish people and can never be sold or even leased back to Arabs ????? this was and is their attitude till today.
So bloody what? You said it, they bought it!  Over 90% of it!!!
PEOPLE ARE EXECUTED by HAMAS and Fateh if they are found to have sold land to Jews!!! How many Jews have been executed for selling illegally to Muslims? Why do you even bring up such a half-assed, one-sided non-argument? AT BEST we would have to simply say Both are wrong to make the distinction and move on. So, shall we just move on back to a real discussion?
Hey long long ago … there was this supercontinent called as pangea …At one point of time Antartica and india were one mass in southern hemisphere . later india broke from antartica and drifted north to join Eurasia.. You know, talking to you i realise that the actual homeland of indians is antartica. So its perfectly fine with you if tomorrow 2 billion indians would suddenly hop off onto a ship to antartica singing the “right to live in their ancient homeland” song eh?
Sigh; just when I thought your last “argument” had topped the chart on inanity and irrelevance in pursuit of your ego not having to face being wrong – and you top THAT by a good margin; I guess I have to admire talent, even if it is for bullshit.
this is the problem with you adults – still living in the old ancient world with outdated ideas. Move on and live and let others live.
Sometimes when you talk like that I get the impulse to look over my shoulder at whoever you THINK you are talking to. This imaginary foe of yours does not seem to live here.
Islam has had a long long time since its more heretical (and civilized) branches considered Judeo – Christian style scriptural interpretation. They lost.
The ANTI-reform or fundamentalist forces won instead, in mirror image of what occurred with Judaism and Christianity each  in their own time.
Dewhitney – BUT, many of the Arabs, mainly those following that Nazi-loving prankster Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, freaked out at the concept…I dunno why, something about apes and pigs and the end of days and heads cut off… I try not to listen to idiots.
Me – good. hope you keep it up. Likewise be fair and dont listen to idiots from israeli side too.
Dewhhitney – SO, this “holy” man starts a guerilla war against Jewish settlers and does all he can to make sure not a single Jew remains in THE WORLD.
THIS IS THE MAN WHO GAVE HITLER the idea for a “final solution”, and formed an Muslim S.S. division to help with the genocide!!!!!
Me – If this is true i condemn this man and his policies.
Sadly it is true, I am glad to hear you say that though, be careful which Muslim adult you let hear you talk that way though!
Dewhitney – Still with me? See now that you can’t just look at what is going on NOW and pretend that you know who is the bad guy. But, anytime you whine and whimper about ANYTHING the Jews might or might not have done you need to know who has been the aggressor SINCE THE FIGHTING STARTED in the 1920s.
Me – Nope i dont pretend to know the bad guy.. I do know. Il enlighten you in detail about this shortly.
Dewhitney – The BEST you could do that way, if you really are what you say you are, is a neutral; declaring that BOTH sides have lost the moral high ground in your mind.
Me – Isn’t this what i have been trying to tell you in my other post ” This is what i believe: – This land.. this earth belongs to all human beings. If I had the authority and power i would make them all live side by side with whatever faith they choose. yeah with people like u around this seems to be a fantasy.”?????
You forget that the cultural system I am defending has not been into using human religions as an excuse to slaughter our neighbors in numbers for about 500 years. How are you and YOUR neighbors coming along with that lesson?
Hindu’s attack and kill Muslim men, women and children …
Muslims jailed for killing Hindus
Hindu Rioters Kill 60 Muslims in India
Muslims kill a Hindu hotel employee for demanding payment
Protest movie ‘Slumdog Millionaire’
Muslims attempt to kill Hindu pilgrims.
I do not see that MY culture has anything to hang its head over when facing yours my dear fellow.
Dewhitney – You also need to see who has kept their agreements and international law, and who has violated them all freely.
Dewhitney –You keep getting on me for not condemning Israel, how about the idiots who are insuring the deaths of THEIR OWN WOMEN AND CHILDREN SO THEY CAN SHOW IT ON CNN and beat their breast over how oppressed they are?
Me – So you admit that you dont condemn Isreal????  and who was that who freely violates agreement and international law??? ill let you have a taste of this international law and agreements that you are talking about.
You wont find a single BINDING UN RESOLUTION against anything I have said.

Sample Peace Treaty Between Israel and Palestine

Remember the famous war that  israel waged on palestine for taking two of their soldiers hostage in 2009? yeah the same war that beats the crap out of all human logic of justice wherein a country goes to war on its neighbor for taking two of its soldiers hostage. Apparently even then there was this “international agreement and treaty”  for an eyewash which the palestinians broke. This is the treaty as explained to me by the one whos side broke it – a palestinian : – I hope you having english as your first language and all woudnt mind her english.

“imagine this : your are a man your twan is sealed and surrounded by military forces no food no electricity no medical supplies allowed to enter.  Your wife is pregnant but you cant send her to a hospital cause its useless as there are no medical supplies available and during the peace treaty supplies are not allowed to enter. Your son is hungry but you cant go and buy him some food cause its peace treaty no food allowed to enter. Its winter your wife and son feeling cold but you can do nothing. Electricity is down and no gas supply. Why ? Are you fool !? It’s peace treaty, that’s why. oh and just to keep the peace treaty existing, Israel helicopters bomb us from time to time to prevent us from being getting bored from hunger and cold and pain. They are entertaining us with some bombings! so everyone chill!”
Sucks when a people start an unjust war, then lose and still refuse to let the war end and just be at peace doesn’t it?  Did you bother to take account of the actions of the Palestinian “leaders” at this time? Did you ask why the people support the leaders who won’t let ISRAEL just live?
you were probably working and then go home get some sleep then call your friends saying whassup up dudes? what are we going to do today? lets gather up any play play station, no no no lets go to a movie! so does any one think about what happened in Gaza? does any one even tried to help them during 2 months of hunger and pain ? all their people are surrounded. Some of them died in hospitals. No one want to help them.
Especially when you are talking about the hospital Hamas leaders hid in, using the dead from a conflict they had started as bloody prostitutes of grief on CNN.
Tell me Muslims would not go to war if Israelis crossed into Egypt and took two soldiers… or Lebanon, or Jordan. Fact that Mansoor doesn’t want to hear number 666: Palestinian prisoners of war in Israel get Red Cross/Crescent visits and support, How many Red Cross packages has Shalit gotten you disingenuous twit? How many letters to his family you sanctimonious farter of Taqqiya!
But wait, it gets better. Israel doesn’t want to let any supplies to enter!
So what happens? – people die in hospital , every body is hungry , its dark cause there is no electricity , and its cold. Isn’t this so so wonderful life to live!?
Gee, kinda makes you think that Hamas has failed the Palestinian people in theri trust to kep them secure!!. But as long as a few Jews dies THE LEADERS DO NOT CARE. I DARE you to go watch an hour of program clips on go see what Hams puts on TV. I DARE YOU YOUNG MA;, or are you afraid to see truth from your own co-religionists?
Me – These are the peace treaties that you rant about eh??? WOW..These are sooo peace inspiring!
Dewhitney – Who is worse? An honorable soldier who FINALLY has had enough with the barbarians, or the barbarian who will put missiles and weapons in a Mosque or school or hospital BECAUSE they know that either IDF (who do NOT target civilians, if they did there would BE NO Palestinians!) will decide not to fire, or the Muslims will have some nice, bloody corpses of their OWN WOMEN & CHILDREN to flaunt and use as cynically as any Soviet Aparatchick ever used a peasant.

Who is worse my friend? Who is worse?

Me – Of course the barbarian who will put misslies and weapons in a mosque or school or hospital is worse .. and in this case those barbarians are the israeli soldiers. You dont think so? then check out : –

Some Of The Mosques Destroyed By Israel

Palestinian mosque destroyed by Israel
1. 20. At 9:00 PM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Taqwa in Al-Shiekh Radwan neighborhood north of Gaza city, and re-bombed it four hours later, killing 4 Palestinian civilians leaving many injured, and resulted in the destruction of the mosque that was composed of four floors and the damaged around 10 neighboring houses.

2.  GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel bombed a mosque it said was used to store weapons and destroyed the homes of more than a dozen Hamas operatives Friday…. At the same time, international calls for a cease-fire have been growing, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected in the region next week to push for a halt to the violence.
– AP IBRAHIM BARZAK and MATTI FRIEDMAN   |   January 2, 2009

3.  The Masjid of the Martyr Imad Aqel in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in north Gaza, the bombing of the mosque by the Israeli warplanes on Dec. 28, 2008 resulted in the collapse of an adjacent house, causing the death of 5 sisters from one family and injuries of number of citizens who are living nearby.

4.  Masjid Al-Saraya was completely destroyed on Dec. 28, 2008 through the air bombing of Al-Saraya governmental compound in the center of Gaza city.

5.  The Israeli warplanes have targeted Majid Al-Abbas and the neighboring Al-Abbas police station in Gaza city on Dec. 28, 2008 that resulted in substantial damage.

6.  Masjid Al-Shifaa Mosque was bombed by air Dec. 28, 2008, inside the mosque were a lot of a relatives of ill persons and four of them were killed. The mosque is located near Al-Shifaa medical complex in Gaza city. The bombing created a state of confusion among the medical staff and teams who are working in the hospital, deepening the difficulties in the hospital after being subjected to significant damage by fragments of missiles and pieces of stones and cement. Israeli missiles turned the mosque to a pile of rubble. The two rockets that directly struck the dome of the mosque resulted in two large holes, the stones and the columns of the mosque scattered and spread out in adjacent roads, houses, and shops causing a lot of damage.

7.  Masjid Al-Fadilah, Rafa, Palestine, Jan. 11, 2009. Masjid Abu Bakr Al-Sideeq is located in Beit Hanoun town in the far north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli warplanes have fired several missiles towards the mosque on Dec. 29, 2008 causing complete destruction. The dead and injured had been recovered from under the rubble.

8.  On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Ezz Al-Dien Al-Qassam martyr mosque in Abasan / Khan-Younis in south of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The Israeli authorities did not mention any reason for this bombing.

9.  On Dec. 29, 2008: Bombing of Masjid Al-Ribat in Rafah resulted in seven 7 deaths 3 of them are children.

10.  Masjid Al-Abrar in Rafah was bombed on Dec. 29, 2009 and again on Jan. 15, 2009. The mosque has been completely destroyed.

11. On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes have bombed Masjid Riad Al-Saaliheen mosque in the north of the Gaza Strip.

12 Around 3:00 AM at Tuesday, Dec. 30, 2008, at dawn, the occupation warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Faruq Omar bin Al-Khatab in Al-Breij camp in the center of Gaza Strip destroying it completely.

13. Masjid Abu Hanifa Nu’man located in Tal Alhawa south of Gaza city, was targeted with four missiles on Dec. 31, 2008, destroying it completely, injuring five women, and damaging a number of adjacent houses.

14. On Jan. 1, 2009 the occupation forces fired a rocket that caused damage to Masjid Khalil Al-Rahman in the Abasan area east of Khan Younis.

15. On Jan. 1, 2009 an Israeli bombing has targeted Masjid Al-Nasr, an ancient mosque in Beit Hanoun town in the north of Gaza Strip resulting in its destruction. The mosque was built in A.D. 736.

16. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli warplanes targeted Masjid Al-Khulafa’ Al-Rashideen in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in the north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli forces fired several rockets towards the mosque and destroyed it, and injured several Palestinians and damaged several neighboring houses.

17 On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli forces bombed Masjid Omar Bin Abdel Aziz in Beit Hanoun causing enormous damage to its buildings.

18. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli F-16′s bombed the mosque of the Martyr Ibrahim Al-Maqadmah in Beit Lahia town far north of Gaza with a large bomb weighting 500 kg when tens of worshipers were performing the prayers, resulting in a massacre of 16 people and injuring dozens.

19. The Israeli warplanes at the dawn on Jan. 6, 2009 bombed Masjid Hasan Al-Banna in Al-Zaitoon neighborhood north of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The bombing  injured several people and the burnt  a number of neighboring houses.

21. About 11:50 AM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Noor Al-Mohammed located in AL-Jala’ street in Gaza city, causing complete destruction to the mosque, killing and injuring several Palestinians, and damaging neighboring houses.

22. On Jan. 7, 2009 at about 2:00 A.M., the Israeli warplanes bombed the police center in Bani Saheela east of Khan-Younis, resulting in destroying it and damage in the neighboring buildings including Masjid Hamza, with no injuries.

23. On Jan. 8, 2009 the Israeli forces fired artillery shells towards  Masjid Ibad Al-Rahman mosque in Wadi Al-Salqa village.

24. Occupation forces destroyed Masjid Al-Ribat in Khan-Younis on Jan. 9, 2009.

25. On Jan. 10, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Ssafa in Al-Breij camp resulting in its partial destruction.

26. On Jan. 11, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Israeli F16′s fired many missiles on Dar Al-Fadeela mosque that follows the house of virtue orphans which includes elementary private school, the college of Dar Al-Da’wa for human sciences, and a computer center. That is located in Taha Hussein street in Khirbit Al-Adas neighborhood north-east of Rafah.

27.  Masjid Bilal bin Rabah in Rafah south of Gaza was destroyed completely in the first week of the war against Gaza, the photos of the destruction of this mosque were displayed by media around the globe.

28.  Masjid Al-Salateen in Jabaliya was targeted by a bombing on Jan. 14, 2009.

29. On Dec. 28, 2008 Masjid Al-Estiqamah in Rafah city was significantly damaged as a result of bombing in adjacent areas by Israeli warplanes. The mosque is located in a densely populated residential area causing the damage in tens of neighboring houses.

This is just the tip of the ice burg.
I am sure, Taqqiya is major Islamic product. Each and every one was used as a MILITARY storage or staging area BY THE PALESTINIANS.
Frankly I think that ANYONE who decided to use their holy places, hospitals, civilian homes and schools for human shielding (SO AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW MY FRIEND) deserves a rocket up their ass from THEIR OWN PEOPLE let alone a defensive attack from their neighbors whom they seek to destroy!
I could lay my hands on only these. am Sure there are hundreds of others. But whats the use of it? Does it help anyone?? Does all this solve anyones problem???  Just know that what u believe in isnt as saintly as u think and just have a thought in your mind that it is perfectly possible that what all you thought might have been wrong afterall. I am not asking you to hate Jews. Dont. likewise dont hate the muslims either. All I wish is for you to broaden up that 47  year old brain of yours and think in a way that is constructive.
You might start by listening to what I actually say instead of demonizing me and answering the arguments of the fantasy demon. I hate ANY ideologies that cause people to pretend their crimes are holy.  If you ever bother to read my work you will see that I go after ANY religious leader who is untrue to the concept of us ALL being equal in the eyes of Deity.
You make the assumption that I am tribalistic and biased simply because you are surrounded by bias and tribalism, but you have no actual evidence of this that came from ME.
Dewhitney – Also, it can’t be called genocide when the population constantly RISES!!! It doesn’t even qualify as ethnic cleansing. . To call it slaughter, or, genocide is to insult and degrade every person who ever suffered a REAL genocide.
Me – So its fine with you if tomorrow a nuke is dropped in palestine killing most of them and you would get away with it saying ..”hey this is not genocide at all..after all these  guys will multiply anyway in another decade.So its all cool” eh.  I have no words to comment on this. Beats the crap out of “humanity” and “humaneness”.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I am not fine with nukes dropping anywhere. You are a slanderous thuggie of false-righteousness to pretend that I would.
You surely know I meant that their population has NEVER GONE DOWN, FROM ANY QUARTER TO THE NEXT, IN 60 YEARS and more! ONLY UP, UP, UP. Kind of hard to get an ethnic cleansing against a helpless, tiny, unarmed-in-a-modern-sense bunch of pacifists in bloody keffiyahs out of that statistic my dear little man with big delusions!
Dewhitney – Since when can people who START A CIVIL WAR, then call in (SEVERAL) FOREIGN, RELIGIOUSLY GENOCIDAL ARMIES to be unleashed upon their neighbors, in defiance of international law, AND LOSE, expect to have a right to the land they tried to steal?
Why does no one care about the German ethnics expelled from Eastern Europe after WWII? Because you are not a refugee if your side STARTED the war and then lost…ooops so sorry, better luck next time! But then they have already tried three times though, and gotten beaten badly to soundly each time; a superstitious person might think Allah did not support the project. : – )
Remember, if the Arabs had NOT gone ballistic and criminal, the Jews would have been a minority under Arab rule, protected by the UN. but, without sovereign power. The biggest “naqba” of the time was, quite simply, the stupidity and arrogance of the Arab/Muslim leadership.

Me – mm to summarize your opinion: –You say what israel is doing right now is perfectly right and justified.
And when did I say that? For that matter when did we even get to discussing what I thought about ANY specific action of Israel in its own context? I have been trying to get you just to admit that Israel HAS a context!
You say that Palestine , Muslims and Arabs are wrong and that they deserve what they are getting.
In the majority of the cases where they have dealt with Israel, yes I do. I have seen too many incontrovertible quotes, films, and statistics to have much sympathy for people who celebrate a woman blowing up her child to kill civilians and then claim to be victims of the legal counter attacks to their terrorism.
Got a problem with that? Then produce facts from the ground AT THE TIMES UNDER DISCUSSION that contradict me, from Turkish, Arab or Jewish sources. Go to it, I will wait.
You say Palestinians are hooligans while israelis are poor saints who only defend when offended.  ok… lets see……
Hamas and Fateh and PIG and Muslim Brotherhood = hooligans? OH YES!
Israelis = saints? Hardly! Nope, doesn’t fly, just they are just Western culture humans, love their children, not death. Being human some are as nutty as any other groups nut-balls.  Produce many fewer than ANY Muslim country on their borders however.
DeWhitney quoting me – “I know you have gone ga ga over this quotes. If i go by this quotes then Australia originally belongs to the Aborigines, America belongs to the red indians, India to the dravidians and South africa to the african natives.”
Dewhitney – Such a shiny, innocent face as you distort realty until it screams in pain…The difference is that no one TOOK anything from the Arabs that wasn’t already in foreign hands!

Me- really?? No one took anything away from arabs is it? Visit earth and there you will find a land ISRAEL – which wasnt on the map 50 years ago. Yeah it was there in the was Atlantis ..
Tell me where Palestine the Nation was. What was its flag? Who were its leaders? When was it founded and how many changes of leadership did it have by 1948?
The answer to all of the above is N/A – NEVER HAPPENED. The British tried to get the Arabs to take building a nation of their own seriously, but the Mufti had too many people trying to destroy all compromise for the Arab leaders to get around to it.
DeWhitney – “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians… but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave.” —PA President Mahmoud Abbas, 1976
We will smash the country. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
—Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, 1948

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.
Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” —Haled al Azm, Syrian Prime Minister, 1948-1949

Or they left from their own fears BEFORE the war hit their own doorstep.

“The fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin “were our biggest mistake…Palestinians fled in terror.” —Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948?

“So if these native guys suddenly come knocking one fine day and settle in their native lands BY DRIVING AWAY THE LOCALs”

Who drove who away? Can’t you read a TIMELINE? ARABS ATTACKED FIRST! Not only that but, MOST of the Muslims who left where not forced out by Israelis! Most left either because THEIR LEADERS told them to get out of the way while those foreign armies slaughtered the Jews or because they panicked with no threat at all.  Less than 20% were expelled AFTER THE CONVENTIONAL WAR STARTED with ARAB tanks invading.

Me – Lets go by your logic. so you say that most of the muslims willingly left the land right? then why the hell are they being stopped from coming back?
Because they left after starting an illegal WAR! They expected the Arab armies would WIN and they could come back shortly and TAKE THE JEWISH LANDS. As they did in ALL Muslim Arab nations in 1948. MORE Jews who had done NOTHING BUT LIVE IN A MUSLIM RUN COUNTRY were expelled than all the Arabs who left Israel! The Jews SETTLED their fellows,bWITH NO AID MOEY FROM THE UN!
The Palestinian Arabs you ask? What about them? Their leaders USED THEM as pawns in poverty in camps to win political points while their children starved and those leaders refused to allow them to be settled and get on with their lives. Until the aid scam got going, now almost half of the Palestinians, are likely to not BE real locals but sneak thieves of that identity who have flooded in over the years, SOMETHING ADMITTED BY UNWRA!!!
why the hell are they getting fenced and bulldozed after all they are merely coming back to their land which they had willingly left according to you.
By international law thy do NOT have any real “right” claim that land, they forfeited that with three aggressive wars, all of which they lost.
Dewhitney Quoting me – “Dont you see what is happening here?”
Dewhitney – Yes, I do, I see the Muslim leadership using the right given in Islam to lie for the benefit of their “deen” to pursue selfish, political ends while THEIR OWN PEOPLE get ground up in the middle! Arab/Muslim history in a nutshell.

““You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by
psychological warfare and population explosion ….I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”
Yasser Arafat to an Arab audience in Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996

“Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong. This intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton.”
—PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, March 3, 2001

“We may lose or win [tactically], but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea [euphemism for all of Israel]. Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”
—Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, April 2001

“The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem…is the principal objective of Hezbollah.”
—Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, June 2, 20006

“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
—Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, 2002

“Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children.” —Jan Egeland, UN Under- Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs

“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” —Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, art. 2829

“The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.” —Protocol Additional to the Geneva Convention, Article 51 (7)30

“A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose…because the rockets would either be fired at them, or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned
by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.”
—Dr. Mounir Herzallah, July 30, 2006

“Those good Jews brought…prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force.” —Syrian Alawi notable’s letter to French Prime Minister, June 1936

“No one doubted that the Arabs had benefitted from Jewish immigration. Their numbers had almost doubled between 1917 and 1940, wages had gone up, the standard of living had risen more than anywhere else in the Middle East.” —Historian Walter Laqueur”

: – ) Are you serious, or do you KNOW that you are distorting what I said? My point is that IF THE ARABS HAD NOT BEEN and continued to be WRONG, the whole region would have been a good place for everyone to live!

BUT, let us assume you are serious. I know it probably makes you itch but here come some more inconvenient facts:

“During the 1970s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth-fastest-growing economy in the world—ahead of such ‘wonders’ as Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself.”
—Historian Efraim Karsh”

You remember that time right? When Israel occupied the West Bank after the ’67 debacle; the area Jordan had stolen from the mandate in 48, and then violated the ceasefire by denying most Christians and all Jews access to their holy places!

Weirdly enough that the ONLY TIMES THE Palestinians have had much PEACE AND PROSPERITY was when the British or the Jews were running the place! Go figure!
Me – So are u done with your Quotes or you have some more left? all you quote are one sided biased quotes from people either terribly biased and “I know all the truth” type like you and nothing else.
That is your assessment of:
Syrian Alawi notable’s, Dr. Mounir Herzallah,  Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, and YASSAR ARAFAT ? All of them, and the Geneva Convention AND the UN = “terribly biasedAGAINST MUSLIMS?
ROFLOL! I just choked on my Dr. Pepper I laughed so hard!!!
Anyway while we are at it, let me present the other side of the story.
I can’t wait for this… : – )

Israel facts, Wonders and Records

(as fantasized by Jihadists)

1.  Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
Utter fantasy, there never was a nation of Palestine. Not only that, nothing was destroyed by the Zionists, on the contrary, they bought wasteland and made it blossom. I have relatives who passed through in ’30’s and then again in ’50’s, I have first hand accounts as well as public records, Turkish surveys and census data, German WWI photographs etc. etc.. LOL.
2. Israel holds the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed…500+
Do you really think I am too stupid to notice that you have never linked a single claim to a source in all this “debate”? Who defined “ethnically cleansing” in these cases? Hamas, who publically desire to ethnically cleanse the Jews? As dishonest as you have been so far that number probably includes the JEWISH settlements in Gaza cleared by the Israelis when they pulled out and gave it all over to the oh, so peaceful Palestinians. Who then destyoed 1/6th of the economy of Gaza by throwing a tantrum of Mohamedan proportions and destroying the greenhouse business that Israel had freely left behind INTACT AND FUNCTIONAL as a seed for Palestinian economic growth.
“Take that you oppressive Israelis, We will starve our babies rather than accept your gesture of peace and goodwill!”
Such honor! NOT!
Then they commenced provocational attacks on Israel, but not Egypt! WHO ALSO DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO FREELY CROSS THEIR BORDERS!
3. Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported…4 million +
When the hell did this happen? During your Imam’s hashish dreams? That number is so far off it is not even in the same neighborhood as reality!
On their own accord, an estimated 600,000 1 Palestinian Arabs fled a war zone, which
their leaders had created. An estimated 250,000 to 300,000 2 of those refugees in 1948
left even before their homes became part of a war zone.
The human tragedy of being uprooted notwithstanding, Palestinian refugees were
neither hapless targets nor innocent bystanders. The first stage of the 1948 war was a
fierce interethnic or anti-Zionist civil war in which Palestinians were the aggressors and
the initiators; the second half was an all-out war involving regular armies, whose
participation the Palestinians engineered. The violent path that Palestinians chose – and
the ensuing fear, disorientation, and economic deprivation of war – led to their own
collective undoing.
4. Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished…60 thousand +
5. Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation…500+ times
That is more a condemnation of the UN than of Israel given the history of places like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc. etc. ad nauseum… oh I forgot MUSLIM nations or allies in terror are GOOD GUYS to you. My Bad.
6. Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes…100+ times
Again, how is this anything but an indictment of the UN and the OIC and other obstructionists/Jihadists?
7. Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
You are REALLY starting to sound brainwashed now. I can come up with half a dozen and more countries – OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD – who have killed FAR FAR more, in some cases, Soviets – Maoists, THEIR OWN PEOPLE, just since 1900! China, North Korea, Russia, Japan, Cambodia, North Vietnam, Germany, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India, The US and Britain to complete the SHORT LIST.
Heck in Saddam’s Iraq that 50,000 (if it is even a valid number) would have been a slow year for their judicial murder tsars.
8. Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country…250 thousand+
Showing latest available data.
# 1
United States:
715 per 100,000 people
# 2
584 per 100,000 people
# 3
554 per 100,000 people
# 4
523 per 100,000 people
# 5
459 per 100,000 people
# 6
437 per 100,000 people
# 7
420 per 100,000 people
# 8
416 per 100,000 people
# 9
Bahamas, The:
410 per 100,000 people
# 10
South Africa:
402 per 100,000 people
# 11
390 per 100,000 people
# 12
388 per 100,000 people
# 13
386 per 100,000 people
# 14
367 per 100,000 people
# 15
354 per 100,000 people
# 16
Trinidad and Tobago:
351 per 100,000 people
# 17
340 per 100,000 people
= 18
339 per 100,000 people
= 18
339 per 100,000 people
# 20
Saint Kitts and Nevis:
338 per 100,000 people
# 21
333 per 100,000 people
# 22
327 per 100,000 people
# 23
324 per 100,000 people
# 24
303 per 100,000 people
# 25
Antigua and Barbuda:
278 per 100,000 people
# 26
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:
270 per 100,000 people
# 27
267 per 100,000 people
# 28
253 per 100,000 people
# 29
250 per 100,000 people
# 30
Saint Lucia:
243 per 100,000 people
# 31
234 per 100,000 people
# 32
Costa Rica:
229 per 100,000 people
# 33
226 per 100,000 people
# 34
214 per 100,000 people
# 35
210 per 100,000 people
# 36
209 per 100,000 people
# 37
207 per 100,000 people
# 38
204 per 100,000 people
# 39
198 per 100,000 people
# 40
193 per 100,000 people
# 41
184 per 100,000 people
# 42
Czech Republic:
178 per 100,000 people
= 43
176 per 100,000 people
= 43
176 per 100,000 people
# 45
175 per 100,000 people

# 46


174 per 100,000 people

9. Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
Got a source, or do I smell brain farts again? How many members of Hamas who were claimed as civilians and then found to be on HAMAS WEBSITES LISTED AS FIGHTERS do I need to convince you that is baloney?
10. Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…200 thousand+
Same answer.
11. Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 108000
12.  Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees
13. Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries
14. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbours
15. Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
And when HUMANE Hamas has your head cut off you will not be bothered ever again by that nasty migraine. Such compassion!
16. Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment
17. Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it
18. Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination
19. Israel is among the select few that has legalized torture
20. Israel is the country that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
Disputed territory that they have a right to settle in that has NEVER BEEN LEGALLY REMOVED BY A BINDING UN RESOLUTION. Too bad, So sad, wrong again.
21. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
Details? Or should I just trust you? LOL
22. According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
How about the record for the highest number of individual assaults, attacks and terrorist bombings? That would be a hell of a competition, so MANY Muslim nations would be neck an neck down to the wire around the concentration camps THEY TELL US they wish they could build for the Jews!
I have had about enough of this for today, I will post the rest of Mansoor’s delusional diatribes tomorrow I hope. YAWN.
gotjewsb karikaturisten10_trever_0
blasphemy CarterHamas e-s_041
jihad2W kafir

Heretics Crusade Has a New Fan: Mansoor Muhammed of “Christ And Muhammad” Website


(note, the times in the comments are ahead because our dear bud Man the Macher lives in Hyderabad, India.)

It just seems that our playful new friend Mansoor just cannot be content even when he has the last word.  Here we have his latest series of diatribes, insults and authoritarian theocratic pronouncements.  He informs me that I am so heinously wrong that he is not passing most of my comments, but as we saw he offered to share them with simpatico “fellow travelers” who  want to wallow in the fully, most hypocritical sense of self-righteous indignation.

He is adamant that my simple discussion of science and history are on a par with the writings of a Pat Robertson or even a Fred Phelps.

Yes, he edits out the most unanswerable parts from some of the posts that he uses, and the rest  are put work to TRY to refute me.  But, he still cannot keep from answering virtually every one!  He is not content with the idea that he can delete me entirely and ignore my ignorant hateful rants :) It seems that he MUST show  me refuted, so deeply have my critiques of his fantasies been.

Even if no one but he and I know of a post he “trashes” he simply has not been able to give it a rest.  He gets more and more insulting and his typing gets more and more teenagerish with shortcuts and cell phone-style contractions as he progressively loses his cool.

This is my response, let the world see the WHOLE story…(text is as-is-when-posted, all typos by both of us have been left in unless clearly marked. Bolds within the body of the text are mine.

  • Guy DeWhitney // March 23, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Did I miss something or did you just condemn a Christian for wantonly attacking Islam, and then turn right around and promote a book (money, money, money) that attempts to shred the HINDU religion?
    Given that modern India is HALF the size it was before the Muslims “liberated” parts in a long series of aggressive wars, killing millions in the process, I find that just a BIT hypocritical.

  • theoworkshop // March 27, 2010 at 8:16 am

    yeah… i did condemn a christian for wantonly attacking Islam and yeah .. i do promote a book that attempts to shred the hindu religion. You got any problems with that? Atleast I dont talk of non sense stuff like justifying massacres done by Isreal like you. Lot of my best friends are hindus and some of them have appreciated the insight that book provides. They all know and agree that it is meant for scholarly and academic interest. Thats the kind of people i have here.

His Friends are Hindu’s and he can’t even be bothered to capitalize the name of his “friend’s" faith!

Short interlude with Jeopardy Music…

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More from Our Man, the Muslim with a Mission, Mansoor! The Debate Continues!


Here is the latest in my debate with Mansoor Muhammed of Hyderabad India and runs the Christ and Mohammed website:

<mansoor>"I have no god – damn idea what u believ in. you cant just say this land belongs to them that and land belongs to them etc."

What is your point, oh insulting one who claims others are being nasty?

When the Ottomans still ruled the area a census showed very few Arabs or Jews in the Judea/Samaria area…only AFTER the Ottoman empire collapsed did the British come in to administer the area, there was NO SHRED OF A LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT after the Turks left. Because of this the vast majority of EVERYONE in the area is descended from fairly recent immigrants.  NEITHER side has a "native" claim though; the Arabs have NO claim that is not attached to warlike conquest, while the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Jerusalem. (let me remind you that the ENTIRE STORY OF MOSES) has been shown to be without basis in archeology or history..this means that we do not KNOW if the Jews invaded Canaan or not.  Either way it puts their ultimate claim far, far earlier than any Arab claim.

When the British established a civilized regime and the Zionists started steadily moving there, THEN the Arab population rose due to the new jobs from the industry of the new rulers and the new immigrants.

This is all easily confirmed public data my dear friend who puts others down as nasty and arrogant all the while being as nasty and arrogant as he can manage.

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Mansoor Muhammed: Threats, Lies and All of That


Yet another Da’wa site has become offended at historical fact…Christ and Mohammed (

The author, Mansoor Muhammed’s homepage shows him to be very hurt at the actions and words of Jews and Christians. He has this lament about the viciousness of Jews and Christians in his "about me" section:

"The world seems to be not satisfied with demeaning, defaming and misinterpreting us."

He is quite distressed at the horrific actions of Israel and the US in his neighborhood of the world.  Poor fellah! He is so upset at my not submitting to his "truth" that this “gentle soul of religious persuasions” (or should that be pretentions?) responds to my posting facts about history thusly:

"Note: For those of you who do not understand the cause of my outburst just leave a comment leaving your email ID and i will show you this dewhitneys demonic comment that i have trashed ( he had put it at some other place) This is the guy who would love to see the world burn."

Note that he promotes a book he penned about the inconsistencies of the Hindu religion but, sees nothing but bias and hatred if anyone speaks of problems with his own. To those who dare to provide a counterpoint view our dear fellow Mansour declares:

theoworkshop // March 27, 2010 at 8:06 am

I doubt he will ever be brought to see that he is being hypocritical.  See, he is not searching for “truth”, he KNOWS IT ALREADY, Muslims do not “seek” as most other religion do; followers just need to submit, and make sure the rest of us conform to their reality.