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That said, before we submerge a crucifix in urine let’s give the Abrahamic tree a second look, and examine the fruit it has borne.
The Jews never had a drive to spread over the Earth. Their scriptures taught them that certain lands were given them by God; so they took them, enough said, this was 6,000 years ago after all. But after that they lost any territorial ambitions. But, the Persians and Romans proceeded to push them this way and that; being rather fanatical, they pushed back. After the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the Judean Diaspora the centuries have seen Judaism become a religion withdrawn into itself. Having lost the arrogance of the Temple but retained the Love of God and intellectual tradition they became a creative yeast in their host cultures.
The Jews never expected to take over the world; at most they expected, and some maybe still expect that the world will join them. Not by the sword, but by the Love of God. One of the best aspects of the Jewish religion is its focus on the Love of God and a Love for God in each moment of a person’s life.
But along came Jayzus!
Things started out ok, Yesuah merely echoed and extended the teachings and philosophy of Hillel. It expanded organically and gently; converting mostly people otherwise considered “unworthy” of membership in one of the more respectable religions, then into the idle upper-class (often by way of religiously adventurous wives discontent with being the ornament on a rich man’s arm.
But then Paul and Constantine came to deal the Judaic Chrestians, and then, later, the mild original “Greek”, a double death-blow of politicization.
After several centuries of defending themselves from the fanatically imperialistic Islam Christianity began to model all sorts of the worst of the Islamic “innovations” in religion and took on an expansionist, aggressive attitude of its own.
But, it is inherent in a religion mostly based on the teachings of Jesus that every now and then people would remember what their religion was supposed to be about. Christianity may have done much more good during those periods than it did evil during its more cognitively-dissonant times.
Since the Enlightenment the swings of the pendulum between arrogant fanaticism on one hand, and humble servitude to God on the other seem to have gotten gentler. Christianity also seem centered more and more toward the liberal side of the equation; i.e. Fred Phelps, not Qaradawi.
Christianity may one day even manage to have more people who follow it for the right reasons than fools-in-lambs-clothing who use religion in unhealthy ways, or merely for social reasons.
Christianity has a core in its teachings and scripture that is there for all to see; one of Love. It today can be, and always has been, a potentially dangerous religion (I.e. Fred Phelps, Torquemada) but is not inherently so by the structure and teachings of its chief scriptures.
I do think that, despite the quantum jump that The Enlightenment enabled in society’s evolution, Christianity has shown a definite tendency to speed humanity’s growth due to the focus of many of the faithful being on Jesus’ ministry rather than the “died for your sins” part.
Now, about Islam.
Islam teaches much about peace and love. There are verses equal to any in the other Abrahamic writings. I will not comment here about those who feel it was the work of someone passingly familiar with both religions. But Pat Robertson did get one thing right; Islamic theology IS inherently aggressive.
The Islamic scriptures consist of three parts:
The Qur’an, the Sunnah –basically a biography of Mohammed’s life, and the ahadith – stories about Mohammed from people who knew him. If you read it all it is clear that there can only be peace when everyone has submitted to Allah.
Even the most fanatical religion tends to mellow over the years; people are basically families, people who want to live and work and laugh and have the space to find God before they die. Even individuals attracted to a “religious” life for evil reasons can be shocked to learn that Love of God and Love BY God can blossom in their hearts; that is the core of any religion.
Islam unfortunately is working uphill in the all so human battle against hubris while trying to find truth. But, by having such an aggressive set scriptures; by having so much to draw from that feeds the darker hungers of man, Islam will, I believe spend more time orbiting around radical aggression before submitting finally to that peace and love that is God, is Allah.
Islam is inherently dedicated by its self-declared scriptural doctrine to naturally one day rule the world by TAKING control of it and forcing Dar al-Harb(‘House of War’) (Non-Muslim controlled regions) into Dar al-Islam(‘House of Islam); then all people will be free, in the Islamic view, to “choose” the “right” religion.
Sadly, it is not hard to justify all sorts of atrocities on infidels (non-Muslims) with the Qur’an; by contrast there are very few Samaritans or Philistines around for Jews or Christians to use their scripture as an excuse to start a pogrom against.
In Islam it does not matter that reformist Imams do not support something. In fact it is literally forbidden in Islam to use your ‘conscience’ as a guide in a religious dilemma; the only proper way to get an answer is to ask the proper authority, and then submit to the “truth.”
In Christianity, the violent books and verses are all somewhat shielded by being in the OT and considered to be superseded by the Love of Jesus when any conflict occurs. Islam does not have a NT to mellow its hard edges, though it does recognize the concept of abrogation (what a prophet says later is ‘rock’ to the ‘scissors’ of any earlier pronouncements or doctrines).
This makes “insulting” Islam dangerous at times in the modern world of high tech, and horrific weapons that you can make in your garage.
I mostly find it sad that the bulk of Muslims are not more vocal about denouncing their radical Brethren in both the private and the public arena. It is every person in the world’s duty to restrain the fundies of all aggressive religions until they grow up. Until a religion’s devout – highest clergy to clueless souls just born in it – recognize to their core’s that it is ok to DIE because of your religion but, that it is NEVER anything but evil to use religion as an excuse to KILL, that religion should be watched, and kept on a leash in polite company.
Islam has yet to show that it can stay grown up. They are younger though, lets give them time…but, keep the rolled up newspaper ready to smack their noses if they sh*t on the rug. We have too many permanent stains from Christianity and its messes; AND the Islam’s’ earlier messes. Of course Christianity STILL pees on the floor now and then. We just have to be patient and rub their noses PROMPTLY in their messes; but, we don’t have to worry about them eating the neighbor’s cat anymore.
I am not too PC to call a club a club (well, I can’t say spade anymore can I?); religion can be very wonderful but, people need to get over their BS and realize that the basic code of ethics that most religions have can also be formulated by simple common sense and an understanding of psychology and social dynamics. Go read a little about Neuro-Linguistic Programming and such. Real secular morality is what the world needs, not the Fascist pretend kind, only then can religion truly flourish; when we get over all this bickering on who is actually the only ones in touch with the “ONLY source of Morality™”; which they cannot even prove exists.
Faith is the problem; submission to something you do not feel yourself is the problem. Beliefs have reasons, sometimes bad ones but, reasons that can be ‘reasoned with’; faith has no reason therefore the most reasonable argument does no good, your head still rolls on the floor.
After Obama’s amazingly naive speech on peace in the Middle East I just have to repost this wonderful satire by Latma, Caroline Glick‘s Hebrew language humor site.
You have to give Hamas some credit for chutzpah, they really do manage to “Con the World”…
Pre 67 border Safe for Israel? Now, THAT is a Con!
May Israel Always be Free, from the Jordan to the sea.
I think the full picture is that we should end occupation. Them being bad doesn’t give you the right to steal their land, kill their children, and rape their daughters and wives. Educate yourself focus and listen to some Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Robert Fisk and others.
Here is my reply:
@hicham437 Noam Chomsky? Washington and Jefferson would have held him down while Franklin shoved the Declaration and Constitution down his throat! He makes the word “Liberal” into a curse instead a badge of honor.
He is a classic Marxist fellatiating “progressive” who thinks people like Mao, Ho, Pol Pot and Stalin were “O.K. dudes”!
That said, if you would understand the modern situation in Israel and it’s neighbors study the history going back all the way to the mid 1800’s.
This is when most of the ancestors of both Arabs and Jews started flocking to the area; this influx of Arabs and Jews continued until the early 30’s, with many Arabs coming to work in British and Jewish initiated jobs; jobs that did not exist where the Arab immigrants, mostly Syrians and Jordanians (new countries Hand-Delivered Compleat including new & improved infrastructures to the local Arabs by the British and French, those “Colonializing Bastards”, after centuries of callous foreign domination by the Turks) were from.
When looking at the actual history, as opposed to the rampantly political rhetoric from the extremes of both sides, you will find that the “Palestinian people” does not, and never did, exist as either a cultural or ethnic division from Arabs of “Greater Syria.”
Indeed, the concept of a Palestinian people that did not include Jews was created in the early 60’s as an open and blatantly political tool to “win” in the battle to remove Israel. Prior to that any and all accounts of “Palestine and “Palestinians” in general referred to ALL inhabitants of the area, including, and and especially, the Jewish elements that had been the majority population of Jerusalem for some time. The “Palestinian mandate” referred to Jews, not Arabs, they having been given the vast majority of the entire region when the Turkish Empire folded up after they sided with Germany in WWI. Government was gone in those regions, Saudi Arabia was Arab ruled solely because of British intervention on their side against the Turks; and the British and French stepped n and established modern infrastructures of government and social services then let themselves be kicked/invited out of control before the locals had grown beyond their tribal-based endemic corruption and nepotism.
At that point both the Arab nationalist movement and the Jewish nationalist movement gained steam and a foothold; until the office of Mufti of Jerusalem fell into the hands of a rabid anti-Semite this was more a joint venture than a competitive one!!! This man was a buddy of Hitler, and had his own Muslim S.S. division!
He may, emphasize may, have been the originator and motivator of the entire “kill them all, and we won’t HAVE a problem” quote unquote ‘solution’ dear Adolph and others so hideously embraced. He was poised to apply it in his own backyard when things went sour for the Axis and he had to go on the run; mainstream history, if you bother to look it up!
As to “occupation”, follow the history and you find that never in hundreds of years, and then only briefly, has sovereignty been exercised in the region by locals, Arab or Jewish; even when it was Arab it was foreign Arabs, not local tribes. There cannot be a legal “occupation” if there was never a settlement of the disputed territories; which is what Gaza and the West Bank LEGALLY are by any and all BINDING international declarations, agreements or UN Security Council commandments; deal with it, or stop talking about international “law” and how Israel is breaking it.
Iranian fighter turned US spy: Tehran will attack Israel
Former Revolutionary Guard member who relayed its secret operations to CIA for 10 years says Iran will commit ‘most horrendous suicide bombing in human history’ if not stopped
Kahlili accused the Obama Administration of being naïve. According to him, the American overtures are viewed by the Iranian regime as a sign of weakness, while the Iranian people consider the efforts to engage the regime an act of betrayal against their struggle for freedom.
Kahlili said he joined the Revolutionary Guard following the Islamic revolution of 1979, but volunteered to work for the CIA when he became disillusioned with the Khomeini regime after witnessing acts of rape, torture and murder.
Iran, not Turkey has the most secularly oriented population in the Muslim world. Iranians were the only Muslim population to come out into the streets in *sympathy* for America after 9/11. There is little doubt that the Shah abused the Iranian people and that they were justified in wishing him removed. However the general Iranian population had no idea that the end result would be slavery to the most conservative religious elements.
I firmly agree with those that believe that if Obama had shown any support for the Iranian (almost) revolution after their last election the “almost” would be missing completely.
Here is the latest in our attempt to debate the blogger in India who runs the Prophetrejectors.blogspot.com site. As the exchange has developed I was beginning to think that I mistook Mansoor for a solid Islamist; it seemed he might really be just one significant disillusionment from being a moderate who still supports the traditional to a real Western-style moderate.
I am about ready to give up that position. Mansoor Muhammed seems to be completely unaware of the fact that everything he considers “decent” about his position comes from Western ethics and philosophy. The only thing about his view of the future peace that fits traditional Islam is his fantasy that Traditional Islam is not the biggest threat to the kind of tolerant, multi-cultural utopia he envisions.
Imagine what a non “under-fatwa-for-heresy” Imam would say about most of this response to my recitations of facts regarding Israel; I will put my reaction in parenthesis next to each line in this list to give my own version of an “ideal and fair” settlement of the Palestinian Mandate dispute.
Let me begin this article with my stand on the Israel – Palestine issue.
1. I do not wish the Arabs to send Israel to oblivion.
And, despite the words you tried to cram down my throat, I have never said I WANTED a single Human killed for anything less than “right now murderous attack” self-defense. That said, I agree with the sages who said that to have peace you must be ready to go to war. I don’t have to like it, I just have to accept what I need to do to fight those who would kill EVERYONE that they can not control.
2. I do not wish to evict the Jews from middle east.
That is a good thing, given that many of them have been almost completely ethnically cleansed already from numerous countries. Completely from Saudi (enslaved by the House of Saud) Arabia.
I hear Arabs mostly got to stay in Israel if they did not take up arms in ’48 or run away. The ones that were expelled for merely being on the side that decided on civil war I have limited sympathy for. But given how they all were raped by the Arab leadership and stuffed into camps forever and ever and ever to be used as political tools gives me back most of it; at least for the ones who would rather see their children grow to be happy adults than use them to bribe Allah to allow them into heaven with their children’s body in 47 pieces across Tel Aviv.
3. Though the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was illegal, i know that this cannot be undone. Keeping world peace in mind I wish that Israel do something good for Palestinians and middle east in general in return of the land that they stole.
Here is where we seriously disagree. You have accepted whole a version of history that has been invented and re-invented several times over 6 decades in full view of a short-attention-span world. I have personally witnessed a fair amount of the actual events, heard what the participants said THEN.
The creation of the State of Israel was completely legal by the only authority that exited in the world at the time with even limited recognized sovereignty over the area. Take it in Sir, There has never been a country, nation or even a people living there who called themselves Palestinian Arabs, Or Palestinian Muslims; this did not change until the nineteen SIXTIES, as a tactic to gain sympathy for the “occupied” people, who in fact live on disputed land that is not EITHER Arab or Jewish until a final settlement ACCORDING TO ALL INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT HAS JURISDICTION. It is also a plain fact that none of the Jewish settlements are technically illegal in the disputed territories. Since the establishment of the final Mandate for Palestine in 1920 the Jews have an internationally recognized RIGHT to settle as individuals anywhere from the Jordan to the sea; what is not given by the Mandate itself is sovereignty over NON-Jews ALREADY there. There was envisioned a population transfer, where Jews from Arab areas would change places with Arabs from Jewish areas to create two COHERENT AND SELF CONSISTENT nations. In fact the Palestinian state WAS created, but not in Israel, it is called Jordan today and it was created from the Palestinian Mandate specifically to be a larger part given to MUSLIMS as a bribe to stop opposing the will of the entire international community. As far as I have heard they are still there unmolested for as long as they do not send their tanks toward the border with intent to slaughter Jews.
4. I wish Israel to get back to the borders it had in 1947-48.
Really? Here they are:
Please take note of the LEGAL IMPLICATIONS of the fact that the UN Partition PLAN was rejected by the Arabs, who started a civil, then a conventional WAR to defy a legal UN mandate.
By doing so they also left the 1920 to 1948 (YOUR selected date) Mandate border as the Last Legal Border ™.
The Jordanians attempted to take and hold Jerusalem which, it was hoped up to that time, could be an international city open to, but also neutral to, all three Abrahamic faiths. The Jordanians agreed at the ceasefire (’49 to ’67 map; Arabs were in retreat at the time the lines were frozen) to allow free access to the Holy sites, but never allowed Jews access, and barely allowed properly dhimmi-churched Christians until 1967 when Egypt attempted to finish what they failed to do in ’48.
As you can see by the next map (’67 to ’73), that was not the best idea.
5. I wish for peace between the two states.
But, one of the biggest obstacles to peace is that the Arab factions have, since 1917 when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after their failed support of Imperialistic Germany in WWI, consistently failed to even try to form a stable government for the administration of a state that has as its goal the WELFARE of its citizens, as opposed to using them as fodder in a long, patient war. The entire chain of pseudo-governing “resistance” Thuggiganizations since Arafat’s appearance admitted inventing the CONCEPT of a “Palestinian People”, solely Arab and Muslim, AS A TOOL TO GAIN SUPPORT IN THEIR BATTLE AGAINST ISRAEL.
This is not a disputed item, it is public record!
Until recently the plan has always been for Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon to annex the appropriate pieces once Israel is broken up “from the Jordan to the Sea“…. as they attempted to do in ’48, ’67, and ’73 without once setting a goal of “freeing” the “Palestinian People” to form a self-determining Muslim state; a locally self-sovereign Arab state where none had ever existed before.
6. I wish that both Palestine and Israel to have good relations.
Assuming we can all agree to settle just where is Israel and where is “Palestine” and the local Arabs will accept it and recognize it not continue their Jihad against the resultant Israeli state I can agree with that whole-heartedly. Last time I checked though the party line across the Muslim world was No. No. No. on all three propositions.
7. The Christians, Jews and the Muslims – all have the right on Jerusalem. I wish Jerusalem to be a multi – religious capital of the world.
So did a lot of people, including Israel, before 1948! You would have to have a chat with YOUR leaders to get the rationalization as to why it is not one now and for the last 60 years.
This is a special sore spot because of the horrible record modern Muslims have for administering non-Muslim pilgrims in areas they have responsibility for, such as the Temple Mount. Especially since Islam has by far the weakest RELIGIOUS identification with the city. Sorry to hurt your feelings but, Westerners do not care what your faith tells you, the historical evidence all points to no significant connection of Islam with Jerusalem except as its use TWICE (an ancient Muslim leader under ban from Mecca and the modern Palestinian movements) as a political tool to be discarded as soon as its usefulness abates.
8. Jerusalem shouldn’t be under any single religious entity.
Once again, it has been the Muslim leaders who have prevented this from happening; go ask THEM why they don’t move that Jerusalem be declared international territory.
9. I wish that the Arabs extend the hand of peace by accepting the Israeli borders that it had when it was newly created in 1948. From Israel’s end, I wish it hand over all lands that it occupied in 1967. From american end, I wish it to aid Palestine as much as it aids Israel economically and politically and I wish that America stop all military aid to Israel on the slightest inclination of peace from either sides.
That is cool by me! Here is the last legal border before the Arabs declared the UN partition plan dead and attacked Israel with five armies. I will even support making Jerusalem an international city if the Muslims give up sole control of the Temple Mount (which was GIVEN to as a gesture of goodwill by the Jews).
10. After this is done, I wish each of the parties to let go of the past and focus on the future in turning Middle – east into a Paradise from the hell that they have made out of it.
That should not be a problem, the Israelis have tried numerous times to get the Arabs to allow them to teach them how to make the desert and waste blossom as they did with the land they had legally purchased from its absentee owners, mostly foreign Muslims; mostly Arab themselves -, isn’t Arab solidarity a wonderful thing!!!
I would just love to be a fly on the wall when Mansoor gets up after Jummah in Hyderabad and proposes his “solution” to his fellow worshippers and Imams; as long as I am hiding out of reach of flying objects, blood and gunfire.
Now, after demonstrating to us all how enlightened and loving he is, Mansoor will proceed to demonstrate that the devout and gentle Muslim he is has no problem demonizing, insulting and in general bearing false witness against a non-Muslim; Me.
I recieved a response from a 47 year old anti – palestinian guy going by the name Dewhitney from riverside, California. who claims to know the all truth about the middle east mess.
First lie: I have never said anything close to this, I just have more historical information than Mansoor’s ideological leash holders have allowed him to receive. I hold no grudges; I too would like peace in the region. Not the peace of Submission, but the peace of Enlightenment.
He doesnt seem to care about solving the ongoing crisis but instead rattles on and on about how inhuman, barbaric, terroristic and murderous the palestini side is. He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while at the same time he wouldn’t mind someone obliterating Islam and the muslims off the face of the earth.
As nasty a libel as this is I almost fell off my chair laughing when I imagined Mansoor typing away, a holy smile on his face, “…He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while at the same time…“ and he suddenly realizes THERE IS NO “While at the same time”. So he invented a blood libel (he must have stolen my copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Lie-On) and inserted it into my mouth; I hope he at least washed his hands first!
He labels Islam and the muslims to be the sole root cause of the entire issue. The following is his reply and my response to it. Find his previous replies and my responses Here. Scroll down the page to find his comments.
He Quotes me – “I have no god – damn idea what u believ in. you cant just say this land belongs to them that and land belongs to them etc.”
Dewhitney – What is your point, oh insulting one who claims others are being nasty?
When the Ottomans still ruled the area a census showed very few Arabs or Jews in the Judea/Samaria area…only AFTER the Ottoman empire collapsed did the British come in to administer the area, there was NO SHRED OF A LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT after the Turks left. Because of this the vast majority of EVERYONE in the area is descended from fairly recent immigrants. NEITHER side has a “native” claim though; the Arabs have NO claim that is not attached to warlike conquest, while the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Jerusalem.In any case the Jewish “clam” was established far, far earlier than any Arab claims.
When the British established a civilized regime and the Zionists started steadily moving there, THEN the Arab population rose due to the new jobs from the industry of the new rulers and the new immigrants.
This is all easily confirmed public data my dear friend who puts others down as nasty and arrogant all the while being as nasty and arrogant as he can manage.
One of the regions administered by the British was set aside as a place where Jews would have a RIGHT to SETTLE (not RULE the Arabs), simply a permanent right to live in their ancient homeland.
Me – Right to live in ancient homeland?????Past is past… stop using what happened 2000 – 3000 years ago as an excuse to say Israel has a right to settle there….
You miss the point; only sovereignty ended in 93 AD; Jewish residency never ceased. If all the Arabs and Jews whose grandparents came to The Mandate and settled from 1850 to 1948 went to their respective homelands both Jewish and Arab populations would drop by 90% or more! Under the Ottomans it was a wasteland, and hardly worth the Caliph’s bother.
First the British then, the Zionists BUILT the infrastructure and the jobs and reclaimed the land that then drew many Arabs to the area over those decades.
No ONE has the right to settle down in a place where people are already living since hundreds of years…BUT they can difinitely come and live … mingle with the crowd … be one with them as brothers as any ordinary people. But you dont call this as “right to settle” as if you are demanding land back. I guess you didnt read my point about aborigines, dravidians, native south africans and red indians – all of whom were evicted systematically.
THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE MANDATE Mansoor!
But the Arabs said No, and shot up things. So the UN tried the Partition Plan, and the Arabs said HELL NO, and launched full scale war.
Don’t blame ME for the historical records of MUSLIMS, TURKS, JEWS and BRITISH from this time.
By the pains that you are going through to defend this dogmatic stupidity i assume that have packed your bags to get out as soon as any of the local natives comes knocking your door singing the “right to settle down” song.
To each his own, I happen to hope you might actually be able to lift your head from the floor under your Imam’s foot and look at undisputed historical data for yourself, without having to let said Imam TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK about it.
The Jews could have settled in middle east as any other normal ordinary people.
Tell that to the Arabs who lived then in the entire region, OUTSIDE of the Mandate, who sent FIVE ARMIES to make sure that would not happen. There would have been NO STATE of Israel if the Arabs had not rejected their being allowed to have a right to settle. No Arab STATE OF ANY KIND EXISTED THERE. There was Ottoman control, then chaos, then the British took responsibility for keeping the region from falling into desperate poverty and anarchy; did a good job too, many Arabs moved to “the City of Jobs” from 1917 to the ’30s!
Your Imams might have you convinced the sky is yellow with polka dots but, all the OBJECTIVE evidence all points to its being blue most of the time. Your refusal to moderate your opinion based on accepted facts is a bit disturbing. when you then accuse ME of genocidal intentions you go far beyond simply disturbing, you become pathetic in your religious and cultural insecurity.
Now you would say …yeah .. the israelis did came with sweet smiles on their faces with humbleness dripping all over but the barbaric animalistic arab apes shooed them away..right? Coudlnt they have just come there and lived .. as normal ordinary human beings..????
but no no..they had to play the religion card and carve lands out of 5 countries and announce to the world with pomp and show that this land is theirs only ( oh sorry i mean .. the right to settle..)
Do you realize you are telescoping about 5 years of complex negotiations that the Arabs REJECTED into some kind of Jewish invasion and declaration of Israel inside a nation you imagine, but that never has existed yet!
aaaah …….but i guess you didnt know that Land bought by the Jewish National Fund is held in the name of the Jewish people and can never be sold or even leased back to Arabs ????? this was and is their attitude till today.
So bloody what? You said it, they bought it! Over 90% of it!!!
PEOPLE ARE EXECUTED by HAMAS and Fateh if they are found to have sold land to Jews!!! How many Jews have been executed for selling illegally to Muslims? Why do you even bring up such a half-assed, one-sided non-argument? AT BEST we would have to simply say Both are wrong to make the distinction and move on. So, shall we just move on back to a real discussion?
Hey long long ago … there was this supercontinent called as pangea …At one point of time Antartica and india were one mass in southern hemisphere . later india broke from antartica and drifted north to join Eurasia.. You know, talking to you i realise that the actual homeland of indians is antartica. So its perfectly fine with you if tomorrow 2 billion indians would suddenly hop off onto a ship to antartica singing the “right to live in their ancient homeland” song eh?
Sigh; just when I thought your last “argument” had topped the chart on inanity and irrelevance in pursuit of your ego not having to face being wrong – and you top THAT by a good margin; I guess I have to admire talent, even if it is for bullshit.
this is the problem with you adults – still living in the old ancient world with outdated ideas. Move on and live and let others live.
Sometimes when you talk like that I get the impulse to look over my shoulder at whoever you THINK you are talking to. This imaginary foe of yours does not seem to live here.
Islam has had a long long time since its more heretical (and civilized) branches considered Judeo – Christian style scriptural interpretation. They lost.
The ANTI-reform or fundamentalist forces won instead, in mirror image of what occurred with Judaism and Christianity each in their own time.
Dewhitney – BUT, many of the Arabs, mainly those following that Nazi-loving prankster Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, freaked out at the concept…I dunno why, something about apes and pigs and the end of days and heads cut off… I try not to listen to idiots.
Me – good. hope you keep it up. Likewise be fair and dont listen to idiots from israeli side too.Dewhhitney – SO, this “holy” man starts a guerilla war against Jewish settlers and does all he can to make sure not a single Jew remains in THE WORLD.THIS IS THE MAN WHO GAVE HITLER the idea for a “final solution”, and formed an Muslim S.S. division to help with the genocide!!!!!Me – If this is true i condemn this man and his policies.
Sadly it is true, I am glad to hear you say that though, be careful which Muslim adult you let hear you talk that way though!
Dewhitney – Still with me? See now that you can’t just look at what is going on NOW and pretend that you know who is the bad guy. But, anytime you whine and whimper about ANYTHING the Jews might or might not have done you need to know who has been the aggressor SINCE THE FIGHTING STARTED in the 1920s.Me – Nope i dont pretend to know the bad guy.. I do know. Il enlighten you in detail about this shortly.Dewhitney – The BEST you could do that way, if you really are what you say you are, is a neutral; declaring that BOTH sides have lost the moral high ground in your mind.Me – Isn’t this what i have been trying to tell you in my other post ” This is what i believe: – This land.. this earth belongs to all human beings. If I had the authority and power i would make them all live side by side with whatever faith they choose. yeah with people like u around this seems to be a fantasy.”?????
You forget that the cultural system I am defending has not been into using human religions as an excuse to slaughter our neighbors in numbers for about 500 years. How are you and YOUR neighbors coming along with that lesson?
Hindu’s attack and kill Muslim men, women and children …
Muslims jailed for killing Hindus
Hindu Rioters Kill 60 Muslims in India
Muslims kill a Hindu hotel employee for demanding payment
Protest movie ‘Slumdog Millionaire’
Muslims attempt to kill Hindu pilgrims.
I do not see that MY culture has anything to hang its head over when facing yours my dear fellow.
Dewhitney – You also need to see who has kept their agreements and international law, and who has violated them all freely.Dewhitney –You keep getting on me for not condemning Israel, how about the idiots who are insuring the deaths of THEIR OWN WOMEN AND CHILDREN SO THEY CAN SHOW IT ON CNN and beat their breast over how oppressed they are?Me – So you admit that you dont condemn Isreal???? and who was that who freely violates agreement and international law??? ill let you have a taste of this international law and agreements that you are talking about.
You wont find a single BINDING UN RESOLUTION against anything I have said.
Remember the famous war that israel waged on palestine for taking two of their soldiers hostage in 2009? yeah the same war that beats the crap out of all human logic of justice wherein a country goes to war on its neighbor for taking two of its soldiers hostage. Apparently even then there was this “international agreement and treaty” for an eyewash which the palestinians broke. This is the treaty as explained to me by the one whos side broke it – a palestinian : – I hope you having english as your first language and all woudnt mind her english.
“imagine this : your are a man your twan is sealed and surrounded by military forces no food no electricity no medical supplies allowed to enter. Your wife is pregnant but you cant send her to a hospital cause its useless as there are no medical supplies available and during the peace treaty supplies are not allowed to enter. Your son is hungry but you cant go and buy him some food cause its peace treaty no food allowed to enter. Its winter your wife and son feeling cold but you can do nothing. Electricity is down and no gas supply. Why ? Are you fool !? It’s peace treaty, that’s why. oh and just to keep the peace treaty existing, Israel helicopters bomb us from time to time to prevent us from being getting bored from hunger and cold and pain. They are entertaining us with some bombings! so everyone chill!”
Sucks when a people start an unjust war, then lose and still refuse to let the war end and just be at peace doesn’t it? Did you bother to take account of the actions of the Palestinian “leaders” at this time? Did you ask why the people support the leaders who won’t let ISRAEL just live?
you were probably working and then go home get some sleep then call your friends saying whassup up dudes? what are we going to do today? lets gather up any play play station, no no no lets go to a movie! so does any one think about what happened in Gaza? does any one even tried to help them during 2 months of hunger and pain ? all their people are surrounded. Some of them died in hospitals. No one want to help them.
Especially when you are talking about the hospital Hamas leaders hid in, using the dead from a conflict they had started as bloody prostitutes of grief on CNN.
Tell me Muslims would not go to war if Israelis crossed into Egypt and took two soldiers… or Lebanon, or Jordan. Fact that Mansoor doesn’t want to hear number 666: Palestinian prisoners of war in Israel get Red Cross/Crescent visits and support, How many Red Cross packages has Shalit gotten you disingenuous twit? How many letters to his family you sanctimonious farter of Taqqiya!
But wait, it gets better. Israel doesn’t want to let any supplies to enter!So what happens? – people die in hospital , every body is hungry , its dark cause there is no electricity , and its cold. Isn’t this so so wonderful life to live!?
Gee, kinda makes you think that Hamas has failed the Palestinian people in theri trust to kep them secure!!. But as long as a few Jews dies THE LEADERS DO NOT CARE. I DARE you to go watch an hour of program clips on Memritv.org. go see what Hams puts on TV. I DARE YOU YOUNG MA;, or are you afraid to see truth from your own co-religionists?
Me – These are the peace treaties that you rant about eh??? WOW..These are sooo peace inspiring!
Dewhitney – Who is worse? An honorable soldier who FINALLY has had enough with the barbarians, or the barbarian who will put missiles and weapons in a Mosque or school or hospital BECAUSE they know that either IDF (who do NOT target civilians, if they did there would BE NO Palestinians!) will decide not to fire, or the Muslims will have some nice, bloody corpses of their OWN WOMEN & CHILDREN to flaunt and use as cynically as any Soviet Aparatchick ever used a peasant.
Who is worse my friend? Who is worse?
Me – Of course the barbarian who will put misslies and weapons in a mosque or school or hospital is worse .. and in this case those barbarians are the israeli soldiers. You dont think so? then check out : –
1. 20. At 9:00 PM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Taqwa in Al-Shiekh Radwan neighborhood north of Gaza city, and re-bombed it four hours later, killing 4 Palestinian civilians leaving many injured, and resulted in the destruction of the mosque that was composed of four floors and the damaged around 10 neighboring houses.
2. GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel bombed a mosque it said was used to store weapons and destroyed the homes of more than a dozen Hamas operatives Friday…. At the same time, international calls for a cease-fire have been growing, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected in the region next week to push for a halt to the violence.
– AP IBRAHIM BARZAK and MATTI FRIEDMAN | January 2, 2009
3. The Masjid of the Martyr Imad Aqel in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in north Gaza, the bombing of the mosque by the Israeli warplanes on Dec. 28, 2008 resulted in the collapse of an adjacent house, causing the death of 5 sisters from one family and injuries of number of citizens who are living nearby.
4. Masjid Al-Saraya was completely destroyed on Dec. 28, 2008 through the air bombing of Al-Saraya governmental compound in the center of Gaza city.
5. The Israeli warplanes have targeted Majid Al-Abbas and the neighboring Al-Abbas police station in Gaza city on Dec. 28, 2008 that resulted in substantial damage.
6. Masjid Al-Shifaa Mosque was bombed by air Dec. 28, 2008, inside the mosque were a lot of a relatives of ill persons and four of them were killed. The mosque is located near Al-Shifaa medical complex in Gaza city. The bombing created a state of confusion among the medical staff and teams who are working in the hospital, deepening the difficulties in the hospital after being subjected to significant damage by fragments of missiles and pieces of stones and cement. Israeli missiles turned the mosque to a pile of rubble. The two rockets that directly struck the dome of the mosque resulted in two large holes, the stones and the columns of the mosque scattered and spread out in adjacent roads, houses, and shops causing a lot of damage.
7. Masjid Al-Fadilah, Rafa, Palestine, Jan. 11, 2009. Masjid Abu Bakr Al-Sideeq is located in Beit Hanoun town in the far north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli warplanes have fired several missiles towards the mosque on Dec. 29, 2008 causing complete destruction. The dead and injured had been recovered from under the rubble.
8. On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Ezz Al-Dien Al-Qassam martyr mosque in Abasan / Khan-Younis in south of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The Israeli authorities did not mention any reason for this bombing.
9. On Dec. 29, 2008: Bombing of Masjid Al-Ribat in Rafah resulted in seven 7 deaths 3 of them are children.
10. Masjid Al-Abrar in Rafah was bombed on Dec. 29, 2009 and again on Jan. 15, 2009. The mosque has been completely destroyed.
11. On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes have bombed Masjid Riad Al-Saaliheen mosque in the north of the Gaza Strip.
12 Around 3:00 AM at Tuesday, Dec. 30, 2008, at dawn, the occupation warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Faruq Omar bin Al-Khatab in Al-Breij camp in the center of Gaza Strip destroying it completely.
13. Masjid Abu Hanifa Nu’man located in Tal Alhawa south of Gaza city, was targeted with four missiles on Dec. 31, 2008, destroying it completely, injuring five women, and damaging a number of adjacent houses.
14. On Jan. 1, 2009 the occupation forces fired a rocket that caused damage to Masjid Khalil Al-Rahman in the Abasan area east of Khan Younis.
15. On Jan. 1, 2009 an Israeli bombing has targeted Masjid Al-Nasr, an ancient mosque in Beit Hanoun town in the north of Gaza Strip resulting in its destruction. The mosque was built in A.D. 736.
16. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli warplanes targeted Masjid Al-Khulafa’ Al-Rashideen in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in the north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli forces fired several rockets towards the mosque and destroyed it, and injured several Palestinians and damaged several neighboring houses.
17 On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli forces bombed Masjid Omar Bin Abdel Aziz in Beit Hanoun causing enormous damage to its buildings.
18. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli F-16′s bombed the mosque of the Martyr Ibrahim Al-Maqadmah in Beit Lahia town far north of Gaza with a large bomb weighting 500 kg when tens of worshipers were performing the prayers, resulting in a massacre of 16 people and injuring dozens.
19. The Israeli warplanes at the dawn on Jan. 6, 2009 bombed Masjid Hasan Al-Banna in Al-Zaitoon neighborhood north of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The bombing injured several people and the burnt a number of neighboring houses.
21. About 11:50 AM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Noor Al-Mohammed located in AL-Jala’ street in Gaza city, causing complete destruction to the mosque, killing and injuring several Palestinians, and damaging neighboring houses.
22. On Jan. 7, 2009 at about 2:00 A.M., the Israeli warplanes bombed the police center in Bani Saheela east of Khan-Younis, resulting in destroying it and damage in the neighboring buildings including Masjid Hamza, with no injuries.
23. On Jan. 8, 2009 the Israeli forces fired artillery shells towards Masjid Ibad Al-Rahman mosque in Wadi Al-Salqa village.
24. Occupation forces destroyed Masjid Al-Ribat in Khan-Younis on Jan. 9, 2009.
25. On Jan. 10, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Ssafa in Al-Breij camp resulting in its partial destruction.
26. On Jan. 11, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Israeli F16′s fired many missiles on Dar Al-Fadeela mosque that follows the house of virtue orphans which includes elementary private school, the college of Dar Al-Da’wa for human sciences, and a computer center. That is located in Taha Hussein street in Khirbit Al-Adas neighborhood north-east of Rafah.
27. Masjid Bilal bin Rabah in Rafah south of Gaza was destroyed completely in the first week of the war against Gaza, the photos of the destruction of this mosque were displayed by media around the globe.
28. Masjid Al-Salateen in Jabaliya was targeted by a bombing on Jan. 14, 2009.
29. On Dec. 28, 2008 Masjid Al-Estiqamah in Rafah city was significantly damaged as a result of bombing in adjacent areas by Israeli warplanes. The mosque is located in a densely populated residential area causing the damage in tens of neighboring houses.
This is just the tip of the ice burg.
I am sure, Taqqiya is major Islamic product. Each and every one was used as a MILITARY storage or staging area BY THE PALESTINIANS.
Frankly I think that ANYONE who decided to use their holy places, hospitals, civilian homes and schools for human shielding (SO AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW MY FRIEND) deserves a rocket up their ass from THEIR OWN PEOPLE let alone a defensive attack from their neighbors whom they seek to destroy!
I could lay my hands on only these. am Sure there are hundreds of others. But whats the use of it? Does it help anyone?? Does all this solve anyones problem??? Just know that what u believe in isnt as saintly as u think and just have a thought in your mind that it is perfectly possible that what all you thought might have been wrong afterall. I am not asking you to hate Jews. Dont. likewise dont hate the muslims either. All I wish is for you to broaden up that 47 year old brain of yours and think in a way that is constructive.
You might start by listening to what I actually say instead of demonizing me and answering the arguments of the fantasy demon. I hate ANY ideologies that cause people to pretend their crimes are holy. If you ever bother to read my work you will see that I go after ANY religious leader who is untrue to the concept of us ALL being equal in the eyes of Deity.
You make the assumption that I am tribalistic and biased simply because you are surrounded by bias and tribalism, but you have no actual evidence of this that came from ME.
Dewhitney – Also, it can’t be called genocide when the population constantly RISES!!! It doesn’t even qualify as ethnic cleansing. . To call it slaughter, or, genocide is to insult and degrade every person who ever suffered a REAL genocide.Me – So its fine with you if tomorrow a nuke is dropped in palestine killing most of them and you would get away with it saying ..”hey this is not genocide at all..after all these guys will multiply anyway in another decade.So its all cool” eh. I have no words to comment on this. Beats the crap out of “humanity” and “humaneness”.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I am not fine with nukes dropping anywhere. You are a slanderous thuggie of false-righteousness to pretend that I would.
You surely know I meant that their population has NEVER GONE DOWN, FROM ANY QUARTER TO THE NEXT, IN 60 YEARS and more! ONLY UP, UP, UP. Kind of hard to get an ethnic cleansing against a helpless, tiny, unarmed-in-a-modern-sense bunch of pacifists in bloody keffiyahs out of that statistic my dear little man with big delusions!
Dewhitney – Since when can people who START A CIVIL WAR, then call in (SEVERAL) FOREIGN, RELIGIOUSLY GENOCIDAL ARMIES to be unleashed upon their neighbors, in defiance of international law, AND LOSE, expect to have a right to the land they tried to steal?
Why does no one care about the German ethnics expelled from Eastern Europe after WWII? Because you are not a refugee if your side STARTED the war and then lost…ooops so sorry, better luck next time! But then they have already tried three times though, and gotten beaten badly to soundly each time; a superstitious person might think Allah did not support the project. : – )
Remember, if the Arabs had NOT gone ballistic and criminal, the Jews would have been a minority under Arab rule, protected by the UN. but, without sovereign power. The biggest “naqba” of the time was, quite simply, the stupidity and arrogance of the Arab/Muslim leadership.
Me – mm to summarize your opinion: –You say what israel is doing right now is perfectly right and justified.
And when did I say that? For that matter when did we even get to discussing what I thought about ANY specific action of Israel in its own context? I have been trying to get you just to admit that Israel HAS a context!
You say that Palestine , Muslims and Arabs are wrong and that they deserve what they are getting.
In the majority of the cases where they have dealt with Israel, yes I do. I have seen too many incontrovertible quotes, films, and statistics to have much sympathy for people who celebrate a woman blowing up her child to kill civilians and then claim to be victims of the legal counter attacks to their terrorism.
Got a problem with that? Then produce facts from the ground AT THE TIMES UNDER DISCUSSION that contradict me, from Turkish, Arab or Jewish sources. Go to it, I will wait.
You say Palestinians are hooligans while israelis are poor saints who only defend when offended. ok… lets see……
Hamas and Fateh and PIG and Muslim Brotherhood = hooligans? OH YES!
Israelis = saints? Hardly! Nope, doesn’t fly, just they are just Western culture humans, love their children, not death. Being human some are as nutty as any other groups nut-balls. Produce many fewer than ANY Muslim country on their borders however.
DeWhitney quoting me – “I know you have gone ga ga over this quotes. If i go by this quotes then Australia originally belongs to the Aborigines, America belongs to the red indians, India to the dravidians and South africa to the african natives.”
Dewhitney – Such a shiny, innocent face as you distort realty until it screams in pain…The difference is that no one TOOK anything from the Arabs that wasn’t already in foreign hands!
Me- really?? No one took anything away from arabs is it? Visit earth and there you will find a land ISRAEL – which wasnt on the map 50 years ago. Yeah it was there in the books..so was Atlantis ..
Tell me where Palestine the Nation was. What was its flag? Who were its leaders? When was it founded and how many changes of leadership did it have by 1948?
The answer to all of the above is N/A – NEVER HAPPENED. The British tried to get the Arabs to take building a nation of their own seriously, but the Mufti had too many people trying to destroy all compromise for the Arab leaders to get around to it.
DeWhitney – “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians… but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave.” —PA President Mahmoud Abbas, 1976
We will smash the country. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
—Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, 1948
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.
Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” —Haled al Azm, Syrian Prime Minister, 1948-1949
Or they left from their own fears BEFORE the war hit their own doorstep.
“The fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin “were our biggest mistake…Palestinians fled in terror.” —Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948?
“So if these native guys suddenly come knocking one fine day and settle in their native lands BY DRIVING AWAY THE LOCALs”
Who drove who away? Can’t you read a TIMELINE? ARABS ATTACKED FIRST! Not only that but, MOST of the Muslims who left where not forced out by Israelis! Most left either because THEIR LEADERS told them to get out of the way while those foreign armies slaughtered the Jews or because they panicked with no threat at all. Less than 20% were expelled AFTER THE CONVENTIONAL WAR STARTED with ARAB tanks invading.
Me – Lets go by your logic. so you say that most of the muslims willingly left the land right? then why the hell are they being stopped from coming back?
Because they left after starting an illegal WAR! They expected the Arab armies would WIN and they could come back shortly and TAKE THE JEWISH LANDS. As they did in ALL Muslim Arab nations in 1948. MORE Jews who had done NOTHING BUT LIVE IN A MUSLIM RUN COUNTRY were expelled than all the Arabs who left Israel! The Jews SETTLED their fellows,bWITH NO AID MOEY FROM THE UN!
The Palestinian Arabs you ask? What about them? Their leaders USED THEM as pawns in poverty in camps to win political points while their children starved and those leaders refused to allow them to be settled and get on with their lives. Until the aid scam got going, now almost half of the Palestinians, are likely to not BE real locals but sneak thieves of that identity who have flooded in over the years, SOMETHING ADMITTED BY UNWRA!!!
why the hell are they getting fenced and bulldozed after all they are merely coming back to their land which they had willingly left according to you.
By international law thy do NOT have any real “right” claim that land, they forfeited that with three aggressive wars, all of which they lost.
Dewhitney Quoting me – “Dont you see what is happening here?”Dewhitney – Yes, I do, I see the Muslim leadership using the right given in Islam to lie for the benefit of their “deen” to pursue selfish, political ends while THEIR OWN PEOPLE get ground up in the middle! Arab/Muslim history in a nutshell.
““You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews bypsychological warfare and population explosion ….I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”Yasser Arafat to an Arab audience in Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996
“Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong. This intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton.”—PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, March 3, 2001
“We may lose or win [tactically], but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea [euphemism for all of Israel]. Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”—Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, April 2001
“The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem…is the principal objective of Hezbollah.”—Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, June 2, 20006
“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”—Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, 2002
“Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children.” —Jan Egeland, UN Under- Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs
“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” —Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, art. 2829
“The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.” —Protocol Additional to the Geneva Convention, Article 51 (7)30
“A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose…because the rockets would either be fired at them, or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemnedby world opinion on account of the dead civilians.”—Dr. Mounir Herzallah, July 30, 2006
“Those good Jews brought…prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force.” —Syrian Alawi notable’s letter to French Prime Minister, June 1936
“No one doubted that the Arabs had benefitted from Jewish immigration. Their numbers had almost doubled between 1917 and 1940, wages had gone up, the standard of living had risen more than anywhere else in the Middle East.” —Historian Walter Laqueur”
: – ) Are you serious, or do you KNOW that you are distorting what I said? My point is that IF THE ARABS HAD NOT BEEN and continued to be WRONG, the whole region would have been a good place for everyone to live!
BUT, let us assume you are serious. I know it probably makes you itch but here come some more inconvenient facts:
“During the 1970s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth-fastest-growing economy in the world—ahead of such ‘wonders’ as Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself.”—Historian Efraim Karsh”
You remember that time right? When Israel occupied the West Bank after the ’67 debacle; the area Jordan had stolen from the mandate in 48, and then violated the ceasefire by denying most Christians and all Jews access to their holy places!
Weirdly enough that the ONLY TIMES THE Palestinians have had much PEACE AND PROSPERITY was when the British or the Jews were running the place! Go figure!
Me – So are u done with your Quotes or you have some more left? all you quote are one sided biased quotes from people either terribly biased and “I know all the truth” type like you and nothing else.
That is your assessment of:
Syrian Alawi notable’s, Dr. Mounir Herzallah, Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, and YASSAR ARAFAT ? All of them, and the Geneva Convention AND the UN = “terribly biased” AGAINST MUSLIMS?
ROFLOL! I just choked on my Dr. Pepper I laughed so hard!!!
Anyway while we are at it, let me present the other side of the story.
I can’t wait for this… : – )
(as fantasized by Jihadists)
1. Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
Utter fantasy, there never was a nation of Palestine. Not only that, nothing was destroyed by the Zionists, on the contrary, they bought wasteland and made it blossom. I have relatives who passed through in ’30’s and then again in ’50’s, I have first hand accounts as well as public records, Turkish surveys and census data, German WWI photographs etc. etc.. LOL.
2. Israel holds the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed…500+
Do you really think I am too stupid to notice that you have never linked a single claim to a source in all this “debate”? Who defined “ethnically cleansing” in these cases? Hamas, who publically desire to ethnically cleanse the Jews? As dishonest as you have been so far that number probably includes the JEWISH settlements in Gaza cleared by the Israelis when they pulled out and gave it all over to the oh, so peaceful Palestinians. Who then destyoed 1/6th of the economy of Gaza by throwing a tantrum of Mohamedan proportions and destroying the greenhouse business that Israel had freely left behind INTACT AND FUNCTIONAL as a seed for Palestinian economic growth.
“Take that you oppressive Israelis, We will starve our babies rather than accept your gesture of peace and goodwill!”
Such honor! NOT!
Then they commenced provocational attacks on Israel, but not Egypt! WHO ALSO DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO FREELY CROSS THEIR BORDERS!
3. Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported…4 million +
When the hell did this happen? During your Imam’s hashish dreams? That number is so far off it is not even in the same neighborhood as reality!
On their own accord, an estimated 600,000 1 Palestinian Arabs fled a war zone, which
their leaders had created. An estimated 250,000 to 300,000 2 of those refugees in 1948
left even before their homes became part of a war zone.
The human tragedy of being uprooted notwithstanding, Palestinian refugees were
neither hapless targets nor innocent bystanders. The first stage of the 1948 war was a
fierce interethnic or anti-Zionist civil war in which Palestinians were the aggressors and
the initiators; the second half was an all-out war involving regular armies, whose
participation the Palestinians engineered. The violent path that Palestinians chose – and
the ensuing fear, disorientation, and economic deprivation of war – led to their own
4. Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished…60 thousand +
5. Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation…500+ times
That is more a condemnation of the UN than of Israel given the history of places like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc. etc. ad nauseum… oh I forgot MUSLIM nations or allies in terror are GOOD GUYS to you. My Bad.
6. Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes…100+ times
Again, how is this anything but an indictment of the UN and the OIC and other obstructionists/Jihadists?
7. Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
You are REALLY starting to sound brainwashed now. I can come up with half a dozen and more countries – OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD – who have killed FAR FAR more, in some cases, Soviets – Maoists, THEIR OWN PEOPLE, just since 1900! China, North Korea, Russia, Japan, Cambodia, North Vietnam, Germany, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India, The US and Britain to complete the SHORT LIST.
Heck in Saddam’s Iraq that 50,000 (if it is even a valid number) would have been a slow year for their judicial murder tsars.
8. Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country…250 thousand+
Showing latest available data.# 1
715 per 100,000 people# 2
584 per 100,000 people# 3
554 per 100,000 people# 4
523 per 100,000 people# 5
459 per 100,000 people# 6
437 per 100,000 people# 7
420 per 100,000 people# 8
416 per 100,000 people# 9
410 per 100,000 people# 10
402 per 100,000 people# 11
390 per 100,000 people# 12
388 per 100,000 people# 13
386 per 100,000 people# 14
367 per 100,000 people# 15
354 per 100,000 people# 16
Trinidad and Tobago:
351 per 100,000 people# 17
340 per 100,000 people= 18
339 per 100,000 people= 18
339 per 100,000 people# 20
Saint Kitts and Nevis:
338 per 100,000 people# 21
333 per 100,000 people# 22
327 per 100,000 people# 23
324 per 100,000 people# 24
303 per 100,000 people# 25
Antigua and Barbuda:
278 per 100,000 people# 26
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:
270 per 100,000 people# 27
267 per 100,000 people# 28
253 per 100,000 people# 29
250 per 100,000 people# 30
243 per 100,000 people# 31
234 per 100,000 people# 32
229 per 100,000 people# 33
226 per 100,000 people# 34
214 per 100,000 people# 35
210 per 100,000 people# 36
209 per 100,000 people# 37
207 per 100,000 people# 38
204 per 100,000 people# 39
198 per 100,000 people# 40
193 per 100,000 people# 41
184 per 100,000 people# 42
178 per 100,000 people= 43
176 per 100,000 people= 43
176 per 100,000 people# 45
175 per 100,000 people
174 per 100,000 people
9. Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
Got a source, or do I smell brain farts again? How many members of Hamas who were claimed as civilians and then found to be on HAMAS WEBSITES LISTED AS FIGHTERS do I need to convince you that is baloney?
10. Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…200 thousand+
11. Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 10800012. Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees13. Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries14. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbours15. Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
And when HUMANE Hamas has your head cut off you will not be bothered ever again by that nasty migraine. Such compassion!
16. Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment17. Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it18. Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination19. Israel is among the select few that has legalized torture
Oh, you ARE a real smooth liar aren’t you? ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES PRACTICE TORTURE FAR WORSE THAN ANYTHING DONE IN THE WEST AS A PRACTICE FOR TWO HUNDRED YEARS! Not counting the Soviets and Nazis.
20. Israel is the country that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
Disputed territory that they have a right to settle in that has NEVER BEEN LEGALLY REMOVED BY A BINDING UN RESOLUTION. Too bad, So sad, wrong again.
21. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
Details? Or should I just trust you? LOL
22. According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
How about the record for the highest number of individual assaults, attacks and terrorist bombings? That would be a hell of a competition, so MANY Muslim nations would be neck an neck down to the wire around the concentration camps THEY TELL US they wish they could build for the Jews!
I have had about enough of this for today, I will post the rest of Mansoor’s delusional diatribes tomorrow I hope. YAWN.
It is a tactic of pro-Palestine people (indeed of all partisans) to jump from one
argument to another as pints are raised that they are:
A. Unable to answer
B. Unwilling to answer.
Immediately on encountering one of these unfair logical hate-tactics the pro-Palestine (also known as the anti-Israel crowd) pundit leaps to the nearest ad hominum or personal attack they find handy; anything other than answer the point actually raised.
When they are the ones raising a point it does one no good to make a reasoned response, the pro-Palestine-ian (henceforth to be referred to as the pP’s) will simply jump to the next step on the Palestinian Merry-Go-Round.
As a public service Heretics Crusade is providing this guide to major points on the PMGR so you can make a valiant, but almost certainly futile, attempt to keep the pP’er on track:
We jump on with a response to the pP’s assertion that Israel is “collectively punishing” the Palestinians because their leaders are
responsible for violence and terrorism with the fact that those same Palestinians elected those Arabic Hitler’s and Himmler’s and Berya’s knowing their goals and attitudes toward Israel and Jews.
The pP’er next tells us that Israel has no right to isolate the Palestinians and we respond that no one makes the Egyptians and Jordanians and Lebanese keep their borders closed to the “peace loving” Palestinians; they come back with the excuse that Israel “occupies” land that we then point out was formerly aggressively occupied by Jordan and Egypt and Syria in the course of those countries territorial-based wars of aggression in 1973, 1967 and 1948.
So then the pPer will claim that Jews Stole the Land from Arabs. OR it might berendered “stole all the good land”, but the message is the same, we had a land of milk and honey and the Jews stole it. We then respond that more than 90% of the land was purchased from absentee landlords, almost all Arabs themselves, and was barren when the Jews bought it and that it was the industry
of the Jews that MADE the land worth anything at all. We show them pictures of Israel in 18050, 1880, 1920 and 1930 and the pP’er simply says that the Jews came to the land from other lands to settle even after we show them that most of the Arab population of the 1930s were recent immigrants themselves, come for the jobs brought by the British and Zionists.
One key point that many pro-Israel people miss out on; one that leaves them vulnerable to certain arguments, is how the permission to SETTLE and be self-determining was given to the Jews in the Palestinian Mandate (which never mentioned Arabs
by name) but, that SOVEREIGNTY was not in the cards until THE ARABS rejected the rights of the Jews to live in the Mandate AT ALL. THAT is what brought about the ultimate partisan attempt by the UN that the Arabs again rejected, launching a guerilla, then civil, then conventional war against all international laws and resolutions of the time going back 70 years.
Well, today has been a VERY interesting day, from nonsensical pronouncements on “Palestine” to curiously timed assaults on my “rudeness” by a very rude professor, it has been a learning experience to say the least.
Today, at Scripps College in lovely and beloved Claremont, Ca I attended a panel (not what you could call a discussion, more a multi-lecture) on , well, I will let the Scripps Website tell it:
“Scripps College will host a panel discussion on Friday, February 12, 2010 from 12:00-2:00 p.m. with four distinguished experts on United States foreign policy in the Middle East. The event, “Report Card: Evaluating the Obama Administration’s First Year of Middle East Policy,” will take place in the Hampton Room, Malott Commons, on the Scripps College campus and is free and open to the public.
This distinguished Middle East panel — including the Editor and Editorial Committee members of the prominent journal Middle East Report — will explore diverse Middle East issues, including the War in Iraq, the closing of Guantanamo, the challenges of life in Palestine, and piracy on the Red Sea.
- Lisa Hajjar, Professor of Law and Society, UC Santa Barbara and author of Courting Conflict: The Israeli Military Court System in the West Bank and Gaza
- Julie Peteet, Chair and Professor of Anthropology, University of Louisville and author of Gender in Crisis: Women and the Palestinian Resistance Movement and Landscape of Hope and Despair: Palestinian Refugee Camps”
Two others had been scheduled to speak but were snowed in on the East Coast (You know, Global Warming).
Fair and balanced was probably not the best way to describe Ms. Peteet’s presentation. To be polite, she seemed to me to display all the classic symptoms of a strong case of WhatInconvenientFacts Syndrome.
From an inability to see Israeli concerns about security as anything but “rhetoric” to expressing amazement at Israeli soldiers getting into ambulances to confirm that the occupants are really injured (Hamas has been filmed during the latest Israeli response using ambulances donated by charities as personnel carriers for armed men) Ms. Peteet sees the world the way Ms. Peteet wants to see it.
I asked her during the Q&A why everything she spoke of put all responsibility on Israel to have open borders with a “state”, actually I believe I said “people”, that has openly and consistently for years declared it’s intent to see Israel no more – especially when Israel is hardly the only country bordering either Gaza or the West Bank.
Rather than actually answer this question, Ms. Peteet actually declared that in the 60’s the Arabs were not responsible when ISRAEL redrew the map. Then, she went on to say that it is “international law” that the “host” state’s ( i.e. the state the “refugees” originated in) responsibility to handle said refugees.
Are you following her logic Virginia? Half the Arab world’s armies were on the march toward Israel’s borders, and Egypt had already closed the straits of Tiran to Israel ( already a casus belli) then expelled the UN Peacekeeper force at the border, but it is ISRAEL’s fault for being the first to fire a shot.
It should also be noted I had asked about borders and trade, not about resettlement of refugees!
As a follow-up I asked if it was the case that host countries were responsible for their own refugees would she agree that the Arab states were responsible for giving a right of return to all expelled Jews from 1948 and their descendants.
This champion of the downtrodden coldly informed me that no Jews had been expelled from anywhere in 1947 or 48, period. So, I asked if that meant that the Arabs who left Israel without force were also “not refugees”. Her answer was less than detailed; “This conversation is OVER.”
I asked the above questions at the very end of the event after it had started to break up. I had not been called on after my first question despite little competition from the audience.
Once I had asked that first question a professor hopped up from his seat, (no, he was NOT one of the actual event organizers) and intimidated my assistant out of her seat to plop down next to me and (while the lectures were still going on and making it impossible for ME to hear what was being said) berate me for being so rude as to not have gone up, in the one minute after I arrived before the event started, introduce myself AND IDENTIFY WHO I WROTE FOR and THEN ask for permission to record.
Now I had been recording voice openly and my asst. was shooting photos. She even accidently let loose one flash shot! So I am sure that the entire panel and the moderator were aware of what I was doing, yet had said and done nothing about it!
This professor had taken it upon himself to harass me ONLY after I had asked a question that showed me to be less than a member of the choir on the Israel question.
Just like a redneck telling the city black that the “Standards of the Community” required certain extra-legal rules to be followed this defender of academic freedom expected me to conform to unstated, biased and unenforced rules lest I be declared “terribly rude and even “disruptive.”
I replied that his harassing me and not letting the speaker be heard was far ruder. Then he began to berate me for the tiny sound my blackberry keys made as I took notes. This sound would have been totally inaudible to him if he had not displaced my assistant from her seat to lean into me and lecture in my ear.
He then glanced at my notes, didn’t like what he saw and declared it also against “Common courtesy” to text message during the event. I informed him in a less than patient tone that if he had bothered to READ the top of the page he would have noticed that it said Word to Go – Untitled.doc in larger print than the notes that had offended him.
All in all it was an adventure exploring the limits of human silliness in defense of the indefensible.
Oh, I should add that in two hours of talk about “Palestine”, and Israel, and the terrible plight of “Palestinians”, and how they were being used and controlled to their detriment, two words were NEVER MENTIONED BY ANYONE, but me, in my first question.
What were the words that these eminent scholars felt had NOTHING to do with the problems of “Palestine and “Palestinians”?
Fatah and Hamas, of course.
Oh, again, the ONLY thing in the whole event that was about Obama at all was a tiny bit at the end, dissing him for keeping only a few of his campaign promises and otherwise following in George Bush’s footsteps. There was FAR more talk about the “sins of Bush and Cheney” than about anything Obama had done, good or bad.
A good time was had by all…at least once Ms. Peteet got away from my uncomfortable questions.
Not a lot of comments about this one. I completely agree.
I am very worried about Israel lately. When I was growing up Israel was the accepted proof that the whole Western Civilization thing could work ANYWHERE that the people truly believed in it. Israel has my whole life been the good hearted David who triumphs again and again over the hateful Goliath. (yes, I know that a couple Jews go ballistic every few decades, so? Is that a significant comment about ISRAEL in relation to the daily assaults by many Muslims with the full support of their political leaders? In the real world?
NO. But the winds in the West are changing and the so called “Liberals” now are ruled by those who are more truly called Leftists. The West is coming more and more under the sway of minds that can only see opposition as a thing to be suppressed instead of a challenge from which we can grow.
When the Big Lies of the Arab nations that first fought for Hitler then against Israel are being accepted and spread all across the West by Leftists masking as Liberals how long will it be before even Israeli spirit and innovation cannot prevail against the alliance of the hateful with the apathetic?
This morning I was cleaning the kitchen, and listening to Jesus Christ Superstar by AndrewLloyd Webber; a wonderful skeptic’s commentary on the traditional view of Jesus. The song at the time was about Jesus supposedly foreseeing the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.
At the end comes this lyric:
If you knew all that I knew, my poor Jerusalem, You’d see the truth, but you close your eyes.
But, you close your eyes.
While you live, your troubles are many, poor Jerusalem.
To conquer death, you only have to die.
You only have to die.
At that moment, as I sang those words I began to cry. I am not Jewish. I was raised Christian (Presbyterian) but am a passionate God believing Agnostic and am just as passionately certain that ANY organized religion that feels it can put God in a box to force its followers to accept or be damned is wrong. But I also understand and accept the positive reasons we seek God, to be distinguished from the ways we use religion as a social club to sooth personal insecurities and fear of death.
As a student of history without an agenda I admire the Jews as a culture for almost the last two thousand years. When dispersed and severed from the domination of the scribes and priests (A trend that had actually been a reversal of the ancient Judaic Synagogue model.) and the rabbinical model of Hillel, and his school of Pharisees became dominant the Jewish faith truly was able to mature.
In the times of the Romans, right up until the destruction of the Temple, the Jews habitually behaved much the same as the youngest member of the Judeo-Christian family behaves; easy to offend and extremely into Tit for Tat against any real or imagined “provocation”. Put alongside them the Greeks who at that time had little true devout” passion for even their own Gods and you have a recipe for trouble.
Imagine, if you will, what would happen if you could put a few thousand Devout Muslims from rural Pakistan 2009 into the New York of 1926 as residents.
Picture the New Yorkers having a ball making fun of the silly Muslims and their rites and see the Silly Muslims taking their God and Prophet’s honor back in blood every time. That is about what things looked like in the days when both the Temple and the Romans lived lived in Jerusalem.
But then the Romans had their fill of the Jewish leadership inciting violence against any perceived insult to their Law as well as with the Greeks acting out THEIR hatred toward the Jews whether they had reason or not.
When left to themselves in their own lands they did not cause trouble without provocation and had been slowly reforming their more barbaric customs to a point where in many ways beyond the Romans in ethical reasoning. but anywhere the Greek and Jewish cultures touched, regardless of who had been there first, trouble came from both sides being unable to accept the other cultures idea of social/religious limits and duties.
Once the Romans inflicted the Diaspora however an unforeseen side effect appeared. The rabbinical paradigm, the philosophy of those who shared the view of Hillel that the ultimate expression of both God and Man is Love, took over the Jewish heart for good. The Jews went from being a classic People of the Temple following an un-forgiving “Truth” to a “People of the Book” who sought understanding instead of dominance, reconciliation rather than victory.
Even before the destruction of the Temple the Jews were famous for their scholarship, their dedication to their concept of Justice and for their constant desire to walk with God.
Afterward these traits, all of which are suppressed under a powerful priesthood, were free to blossom.
A close study of Western History will show the result. Everywhere the Jews went economic, social and scientific progress were soon to follow. Indeed there are many more examples than Nazi Germany where nations lost advantage after suppressing or expelling the Jews.
This is not, I think, due to any attachment by God to the Jewish people but to the nature of the Jewish culture itself. If you doubt my words take a map of the world and put an overlay on it that shows where Jews live shaded for population density.
Jews have been accused of fomenting this revolution or that scandal. But they also stand “accused” of more humanitarian acts than you can shake a Liberal-Fundraiser at. So what is it? To me it is very obvious. Jews are…..HUMAN. Yep they have the same strengths and weaknesses that the rest of us have. What they HAVE that is their own is their dedication to be VITAL. To seek understanding of SOMETHING and to better themselves, at least in their own eyes. The result of this is that in ANY creative, intellectual enterprise good, bad or indifferent you are likely to find Jewish people in numbers beyond their percentage in the population. It also helps that it is an essential Jewish virtue to be able to accept with gratitude all criticism. I think that is most likely from where the wonderful self-deprecating Jewish humor comes.
The Jewish Religion, other than in its most conservative (and least popular) forms, is the most “Liberal” of the big five in its relations with other faiths. Now we look at the history of Israel, a nation built by the Rabbinical Jew. An Israel built by those who mourn their Temple and hold its site Holy but who, almost to aperson, do not want to see the Priesthood revived.
This nation that was founded despite treachery and bad faith has prospered and paid the entire world back many times with inventions, inspiration and creative minds seeking to better all of humanity for their little patch of barren desert. Can any nation founded in modern times show as much to its credit on the world stage astiny Israel? Only the U.S. has given the world more in ideas and technology. But if the balance is considered by population then this Californian Patriot will have to salute the Israelis as having surpassed our own ideals.
Anyway, enough of me explaining why I support Israel and am heartsick at the thought of the U.S. freely ALLOWING the next thing to a spiritual child die at the hands of rabid dogs. Here is an excellent article by someone who both gets it and is not afraid to talk about it.
End the Arab Occupation of IsraelBy Ron BreimanFrom Gideon Levy to Barack Obama, from Yariv Oppenheimer to Ismail Haniyeh, from Zahava Gal-On to Tzipi Livni – they all recite the same phrase: It’s time to put an end to the “occupation.” Once the “occupation” ends, peace will be sealed. Once the Jews are expelled from the heart of their country, redemption will come to Zion. From here emerges “the solution” – two states within the tiny piece of prized property that remains, the western Land of Israel, not the Greater Land of Israel.We would do well to recall that the PLO – the (all of!) Palestine Liberation Organization -was founded in 1964 before there was an “occupation,” “the West Bank,” “territories,” and the other political terms that were designed to disinherit the Jewish people from the heart of their country, those swaths of land that were occupied – without quotation marks – by the Jordanian army in 1948, an occupation that lasted just 19 years. The PLO’s goal was not to liberate the territories from Jordan, because those lands were in Arab hands. Rather, it aimed to liberate the “occupied” territories from the State of Israel, which lay within “the Green Line.”We would do well to recall that the PLO never changed its spots. It failed to do so when it signed for “peace” with the naive Yitzhak Rabin, who was lured into the trap sprung for him by the Osloites. And it failed to do so when it
allegedly abrogated its charter. Even the recent Fatah conference and the statements by the “moderate” Holocaust denier, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, can attest to this. The goal was and remains to this day: the Liberation of the “occupied” territories from Israel, namely the State of Israel within the confines of the Green Line.On the other hand, when the Osloites let Yasser Arafat and his gang of henchmen come into the heart of the country with his army of terrorists, they brought with them their own army of occupation. As things went, thanks to the shock after the Rabin assassination, the Osloites quickly handed the cities of Judea and Samaria over to the occupier, an error that the slain prime minister apparently did not intend to commit. This is how liberated territories became occupied territories, without quotation marks. In Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel Defense Forces were compelled to pay a steep price in blood to liberate the heart of the country from Arab occupation.Most of the Arabs in the Land of Israel immigrated here after our waves of aliyah. In other words, Zionism and the prosperity it engendered spawned “the Palestinian people.” Since the Arab occupation of the Land of Israel in the seventh century, and throughout the centuries of Muslim occupation, not one of the occupiers viewed this land as anything more than a distant imperial outpost.The demand to grant a state to Arab immigrants to this country and their army, which is stationed here thanks to the blindness of certain Jews and the nations of the world, is without foundation. It is tantamount to legitimizing a reality that was created here after the criminal act that allowed an occupying army to enter this country.The critics’ responses are predictable: What do you propose, that the Arabs just evaporate into thin air? In contrast with the critics who espouse a racist transfer of Jews from Judea and Samaria, I reject any forcible transfer of any population group.Perhaps there is no solution to the problem. There is certainly no solution at this point. But, this is no reason to commit suicide or sacrifice the Zionist vision on the altar of “peace.”I do not want a bi-national state. If there is a solution, it cannot be found within the confines of just the western Land of Israel. In the long term, the solution will be a regional one that combines democracy, demography and geography. The Arabs of the Land of Israel will continue to live in their present homes and will hold Jordanian and Egyptian (for Gazans) citizenship, voting for their respective parliaments. In the long term, citizens of Jordan who comprise an overwhelming majority in eastern Transjordan will gain power in Amman. It is there that a solution will be found for their brothers who live west of the Jordan River.But in the meantime, we must end the occupation. The Arab occupation in the Land ofIsrael.
The writer was
the chairman of Professors for a Strong Israel from 2001 to 2005
the chairman of Professors for a Strong Israel from 2001 to 2005