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Today we have two re-writes of older articles that seem very relevant today:
First, we will take the “Liberals” as well as the “Conservatives” to task for partisan hypocrisy…
Nowadays the word Liberal is often used as a pejorative; I often use it that way myself for good reasons.
Yet I am a moderate, and probably spend about 40% of the time cursing the idiocy of the Left, and 60% of it complaining and worrying about the Right (It is too bad there are not more real conservative minds in the Conservative camp these days.). Of the two the Conservatives tend to scare me a bit more but the Leftists in total power would be/ have been worse. But the actions of the radicals on either side do not condemn entire schools of thought to a mature mind. This should be remembered by pundits on both sides in this age of attack politics.
Lately a radically Conservative group has taken over almost all the political voice of conservative American Christianity. They have used their pulpit to propound, and pound in, their own view of history, and how Christianity has influenced the development of the United States as a nation.
They are not actually lying about the influence of the churches. The problem is that they have forgotten from just where in the Church all that influence came. Yes, it was those damn liberals every time!
In American history, every time the religious culture has had a profound positive influence (as judged by successive generations) on changes in society those influences have their roots in the Liberal-to-Radical churches. They most certainly did not come from the Conservative ones!
The Conservative Churches in every case have held the line with the status quo through history whether it was regarding the Revolution, slavery, child labor, workers rights, racial equality or now, gay rights. Yet the Conservative Churches of today want to shine their halos with the contributions made for the most part by the Liberal Churches of the past.
This activity is not unique to Christianity by any means. A Radical Conservative Jew will spend much energy telling you about Judaism’s amazing contributions to Western society, but will refuse to see that his brand of thinking never produced any of it. Find a Conservative Imam, and you will find a man eager to convince you that Islam has been an enormously positive contributor to civilization over the centuries. But if you remind him that blind faithfulness to Islam’s Conservative philosophy had nothing to do with the various periods of (heretically liberal) Islamic glory that he is polishing up for you to admire; he may even take offense.
In every case where religious and political power intermingle the things that modern world civilization would call progress has only come when the dominant Church(s) is(are) liberal to the point of being heretical (to the parent dogmas and doctrines), tolerant and more focused on understanding, accepting and spreading the “love behind the Law” rather than promoting a zero-tolerance attitude regarding adherence to the “Letter of the Law.”
But only stagnation and decay ensue when the Churches are conservative and cling to a memory, or fictitious ideal, of “the way it should be.”
It should be noted that Conservative religious thought can have a greatly positive influence on society but, that usually the effects remain chiefly negative.
Witness: the defense of slavery, and the stances of “Godly” preachers and priests against child labor laws, and minority civil rights laws.
Witness: the attempts at forced, coerced and violent conversions directed at any people of another religion that are under the influence of a politicized religion (theocracies, inquisitions, shari’a states).
We all admit that Conservatism is designed to be highly successful at keeping the wheels of a society turning. Who but a fool will deny that there is a true virtue most times in maintaining most of the status quo; Leftists take note of the qualifications and keep your straw men to yourselves – I am not Christian, and never have been a Republican, or supporter of either Bush.
But, it also must be admitted that Conservative governments and organizations have a poor track record when attempting to grease those wheels, to make accommodation for the fact that seems “odd“, “weird“, “different” to the average mind; whether the ideas are good ones or not!
When the going gets rough or to be a creative inspiration for the people who bear the main burdens of pushing the cart of civilization further, faster and safer than our ancestors ever believed it could go Conservatives can be of more a drag chain when they should be acting like the regenerative brakes that go with a hybrid engine.
Conservative ideology certainly does not allow real flaws in the basic social system to be changed without a protracted, and often ugly, fight with the liberal mindset who are busy finding things that are not really broken to make into really nasty situations with well-meaning new laws and more, and more, and more tension from enforcement, and less and less elbow room for the well-intentioned citizen just trying to get along and improve their lives.
Without a Liberal element in society, one that has enough influence to smack the current bosses on the head now and then but, not enough to dominate society a person lives in what is at best a well upholstered slave camp destined to fade into the dust of history.
Without a Conservative element at the core to give perspective and balance a people will… well, just look at the aftermath of every single revolution in the past – the American revolution was actually a colony revolt – it was an independently evolving, functioning society that broke away from the parent nation/culture rather than an indigenous movement to topple all the central power structures and replace them ad hoc with unproven or dis-proven but, “much better” institutions; not long after they succeed the real bloodshed is just beginning!
Who was it again that decreed with proven ‘Holy Authority‘ that all human problems can, and may, only be solved by a totally Left-wing or totally Right-wing ideology? When did admitting that your Party’s platform cannot solve all problems if followed by “good” people?
The voting public needs to take off their trendy, strait-jackets/sheep-outfits, grow up, and look at reality – of the real kind, rather than the oh-so-importantly-unimportant political sort – and then find the ideal solutions, not the solutions that serve your political tribe while walking over everyone else’s Lives’, Liberties, and frantic Pursuits of Happiness.
That said, before we submerge a crucifix in urine let’s give the Abrahamic tree a second look, and examine the fruit it has borne.
The Jews never had a drive to spread over the Earth. Their scriptures taught them that certain lands were given them by God; so they took them, enough said, this was 6,000 years ago after all. But after that they lost any territorial ambitions. But, the Persians and Romans proceeded to push them this way and that; being rather fanatical, they pushed back. After the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the Judean Diaspora the centuries have seen Judaism become a religion withdrawn into itself. Having lost the arrogance of the Temple but retained the Love of God and intellectual tradition they became a creative yeast in their host cultures.
The Jews never expected to take over the world; at most they expected, and some maybe still expect that the world will join them. Not by the sword, but by the Love of God. One of the best aspects of the Jewish religion is its focus on the Love of God and a Love for God in each moment of a person’s life.
But along came Jayzus!
Things started out ok, Yesuah merely echoed and extended the teachings and philosophy of Hillel. It expanded organically and gently; converting mostly people otherwise considered “unworthy” of membership in one of the more respectable religions, then into the idle upper-class (often by way of religiously adventurous wives discontent with being the ornament on a rich man’s arm.
But then Paul and Constantine came to deal the Judaic Chrestians, and then, later, the mild original “Greek”, a double death-blow of politicization.
After several centuries of defending themselves from the fanatically imperialistic Islam Christianity began to model all sorts of the worst of the Islamic “innovations” in religion and took on an expansionist, aggressive attitude of its own.
But, it is inherent in a religion mostly based on the teachings of Jesus that every now and then people would remember what their religion was supposed to be about. Christianity may have done much more good during those periods than it did evil during its more cognitively-dissonant times.
Since the Enlightenment the swings of the pendulum between arrogant fanaticism on one hand, and humble servitude to God on the other seem to have gotten gentler. Christianity also seem centered more and more toward the liberal side of the equation; i.e. Fred Phelps, not Qaradawi.
Christianity may one day even manage to have more people who follow it for the right reasons than fools-in-lambs-clothing who use religion in unhealthy ways, or merely for social reasons.
Christianity has a core in its teachings and scripture that is there for all to see; one of Love. It today can be, and always has been, a potentially dangerous religion (I.e. Fred Phelps, Torquemada) but is not inherently so by the structure and teachings of its chief scriptures.
I do think that, despite the quantum jump that The Enlightenment enabled in society’s evolution, Christianity has shown a definite tendency to speed humanity’s growth due to the focus of many of the faithful being on Jesus’ ministry rather than the “died for your sins” part.
Now, about Islam.
Islam teaches much about peace and love. There are verses equal to any in the other Abrahamic writings. I will not comment here about those who feel it was the work of someone passingly familiar with both religions. But Pat Robertson did get one thing right; Islamic theology IS inherently aggressive.
The Islamic scriptures consist of three parts:
The Qur’an, the Sunnah –basically a biography of Mohammed’s life, and the ahadith – stories about Mohammed from people who knew him. If you read it all it is clear that there can only be peace when everyone has submitted to Allah.
Even the most fanatical religion tends to mellow over the years; people are basically families, people who want to live and work and laugh and have the space to find God before they die. Even individuals attracted to a “religious” life for evil reasons can be shocked to learn that Love of God and Love BY God can blossom in their hearts; that is the core of any religion.
Islam unfortunately is working uphill in the all so human battle against hubris while trying to find truth. But, by having such an aggressive set scriptures; by having so much to draw from that feeds the darker hungers of man, Islam will, I believe spend more time orbiting around radical aggression before submitting finally to that peace and love that is God, is Allah.
Islam is inherently dedicated by its self-declared scriptural doctrine to naturally one day rule the world by TAKING control of it and forcing Dar al-Harb(‘House of War’) (Non-Muslim controlled regions) into Dar al-Islam(‘House of Islam); then all people will be free, in the Islamic view, to “choose” the “right” religion.
Sadly, it is not hard to justify all sorts of atrocities on infidels (non-Muslims) with the Qur’an; by contrast there are very few Samaritans or Philistines around for Jews or Christians to use their scripture as an excuse to start a pogrom against.
In Islam it does not matter that reformist Imams do not support something. In fact it is literally forbidden in Islam to use your ‘conscience’ as a guide in a religious dilemma; the only proper way to get an answer is to ask the proper authority, and then submit to the “truth.”
In Christianity, the violent books and verses are all somewhat shielded by being in the OT and considered to be superseded by the Love of Jesus when any conflict occurs. Islam does not have a NT to mellow its hard edges, though it does recognize the concept of abrogation (what a prophet says later is ‘rock’ to the ‘scissors’ of any earlier pronouncements or doctrines).
This makes “insulting” Islam dangerous at times in the modern world of high tech, and horrific weapons that you can make in your garage.
I mostly find it sad that the bulk of Muslims are not more vocal about denouncing their radical Brethren in both the private and the public arena. It is every person in the world’s duty to restrain the fundies of all aggressive religions until they grow up. Until a religion’s devout – highest clergy to clueless souls just born in it – recognize to their core’s that it is ok to DIE because of your religion but, that it is NEVER anything but evil to use religion as an excuse to KILL, that religion should be watched, and kept on a leash in polite company.
Islam has yet to show that it can stay grown up. They are younger though, lets give them time…but, keep the rolled up newspaper ready to smack their noses if they sh*t on the rug. We have too many permanent stains from Christianity and its messes; AND the Islam’s’ earlier messes. Of course Christianity STILL pees on the floor now and then. We just have to be patient and rub their noses PROMPTLY in their messes; but, we don’t have to worry about them eating the neighbor’s cat anymore.
I am not too PC to call a club a club (well, I can’t say spade anymore can I?); religion can be very wonderful but, people need to get over their BS and realize that the basic code of ethics that most religions have can also be formulated by simple common sense and an understanding of psychology and social dynamics. Go read a little about Neuro-Linguistic Programming and such. Real secular morality is what the world needs, not the Fascist pretend kind, only then can religion truly flourish; when we get over all this bickering on who is actually the only ones in touch with the “ONLY source of Morality™”; which they cannot even prove exists.
Faith is the problem; submission to something you do not feel yourself is the problem. Beliefs have reasons, sometimes bad ones but, reasons that can be ‘reasoned with’; faith has no reason therefore the most reasonable argument does no good, your head still rolls on the floor.
And over here Virginia we have an excellent example of a seasoned political operative exercising her trade; open-faced, warmly sincere, and accidently self-serving, distortions of basic reality. Also take note of the masterly avoidance of any substantial discussion of the actual text of the speech, or, for that matter the actual reaction of Congress to Mr. Netanyahu’s words. MPAC, the Muslim Public Affairs Council has
It is no wonder Abbas said that Netanyahu’s speech before the joint meeting of Congress was a “declaration of war against the Palestinians.” The “Palestinian Narrative” demands victim status for the proper strategic placement to finally “Solve” the Nakba; Hamas is the historical and ideological heir to the Muftif of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the man who encouraged Hitler to adopt the rabidly innovative new idea for Europe’s “Final Solution”. Husayni commanded a Nazi SS division of Muslim soldiers, only failing to implement his own Middle Eastern Holocaust because of the decline of Germany’s falling on the defensive and subsequent loss in WWII.
But, after all, Netanyahu’s adherence to the actual armistice agreement from all the way back in ‘48 is hardly a shock; Israel always was supposed to have a negotiated border based on the “Green Line” where, for the most part, troops happened to be when the final ceasefire was called. From ‘48 to ‘67 Gaza was effectively a part of Egypt and The West Bank was part of Jordan; neither country EVER made a single move, or even suggested, that the “Palestinians” needed a state of their own.
Then in ‘67 Egypt illegally blockaded Israeli shipping and sent it’s entire armored force toward the Israeli border while proclaiming to the world that it was the intention of Egypt to eliminate the state of Israel by a genocidal application of military force.
Here is a quote from Judge Stephen Schwebel, former President of the ICJ (International Court of Justice) (italics added)
“The facts of the June 1967 ‘Six Day War’ demonstrate that Israel reacted defensively against the threat and use of force against her by her Arab neighbors. This is indicated by the fact that Israel responded to Egypt’s prior closure of the Straits of Tiran, its proclamation of a blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat, and the manifest threat of the UAR’s use of force inherent in its massing of troops in Sinai, coupled with its ejection of UNEF (a UN peacekeeping force “invited” to stand aside, or else by Egypt prior to the massing of the invasion force – Guy DeWhitney). It is indicated by the fact that, upon Israeli responsive action against the UAR, Jordan initiated hostilities against Israel. It is suggested as well by the fact that, despite the most intense efforts by the Arab States and their supporters, led by the Premier of the Soviet Union, to gain condemnation of Israel as an aggressor by the hospitable organs of the United Nations, those efforts were decisively defeated. The conclusion to which these facts lead is that the Israeli conquest of Arab and Arab-held territory was defensive rather than aggressive conquest.”
On to MPAC’s all too commonly disingenuous “analysis of Mr. Netanyahu’s amazingly blunt and refreshingly honest speech…
“Last week, President Barack Obama outlined his vision for the Middle East, rooted in the principle that change is inevitable, and that democracy, human rights and self-determination will continue to ultimately move the region to a better place. For too long, dictators ran the region, many of whom deliberately held the Mid-East peace process hostage for their own personal gain and popularity.”
Well, we all know how willing the Arab states have been to sit down and hammer out a settlement, right? The following undisputed quotes paint a different picture of the Muslim attitude on the ground I am afraid…
“You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion….I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”
Yasser Arafat speaking to an Arab audience; Stockholm, Sweden 1996
“Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong. This intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton.”
PA Minister Imad Falouji, 2001
“We may lose or win [tactically], but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea. Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”
Faisal Husseini, PA minister & Jerusalem PLO representative, 2001
Peace Partners, Obama said? “Not by the hair of my chinny, chin, chin. said the Little Pig”. Back to MPAC’s demonstration of psychological projection…
An important component of the President’s address was the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The President did not offer anything novel regarding the conflict, but rather re-stated long-running U.S. policy regarding the 1967 borders, which both the Clinton and Bush administrations saw as a starting point for negotiations.
In response, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sat in the White House alongside Obama and called the President’s remarks on the 1967 borders “indefensible” and “throwing Israel under the bus”. Netanyahu not only questioned President Obama’s intelligence in a 12-minute rambling diatribe in the Oval office on the history of the Middle East, but at the invitation of the congressional Republican leadership, he went so far as to rebut the President’s speech in front of both houses of the United States Congress this week.
And, it seems that much of Congress was receptive to this fresh, almost shocking openness and return to honesty in that sacred chamber. The MPAC fantasy continues…
“Unfortunately, this type of political grandstanding is nothing new from the Republican leadership in Congress. In November 2009, after meeting with Netanyahu in Israel, Republican House Majority leader Eric Cantor (leading a 25-person Congressional delegation), said that he would act as a check to the President’s policy in the Middle East. This statement was an unprecedented rebuke by a member of Congress, of an American President on foreign soil. No matter what one’s views are regarding the conflict, it is distasteful for members of Congress to volunteer themselves as theater props in order to discredit the President of the United States.”
A member? hardly; MPAC’s spin-meisteress forgot to add that 30 Representatives and 17 Senators were chosen/volunteered by the VICE PRESIDENT and Speaker of the House to be Netanyahu’s “Escort of Honor”; and yes Virginia, it was a totally bi-partisan group, including BOTH Democratic Senators from California! Oh, and then there were the 27 standing ovations, most of them loud and obviously sincere; there is an element on the Left that claims the entire U.S. Congress is so terrified of Israel that they do not feel they can be SEEN to NOT be enthusiastic, Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght! Oh, we should also note this little piece from the Washington Post: Democrats join Republicans in questioning Obama’s policy on Israel
“No matter how long such political theater continues, the status quo will not move either side forward. Both sides have entrenched themselves. From the Israeli side, the separation wall continues to be built on Palestinian land and illegal settlements continue to grow. The Palestinians have recently signed a unity agreement, yet there does not seem to be much movement towards a national platform for peace and the use of violence in Gaza continues to set them back.”
What a tribute to the Imagination and genius of the Republican “political theater” staff; twenty seven standing ovations from both sides of the aisle; no less enthusiastic at the end, after Congress being gently slapped in the face with reality, than at the beginning.
“President Obama cannot produce a peace agreement on his own…”
Of course not, and if he tried I think that this same MPAC writer would likely claim that the U.S. had no right to do any such thing!
“…And while pressure is on Palestinians to make more concessions, the reality is that the Israelis can end the stalemate now if it wanted to have a peace deal.”
This is the first time I have seen “peace deal” used as a euphemism for national and ethnic suicide; given the adamantly stated goals of the Arab nations and the Palestinian “leadership” no other definition can be entertained by the sane and sober.
Here are some more historical quotes to dash a little cold water on this fantasy called the “Palestinian narrative”:
“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an open sore, as an affront to the UN and as a weapon against Israel.”
Ralph Galloway, Director of UNRWA, 1958
“All the Arab countries want to keep this problem looking like an open wound.”
Ana Liria-Franch, UN High Commissioner for Refugees’ regional representative to Cairo, 2003
“If Arabs return to Israel, Israel will cease to exist.”
Gamal Abdel Nasser, Egyptian President, 1961
“The demand for the return of the Palestinian refugees…is tantamount to the destruction of Israel.”
As’ad Abd-Al Rahman, Minister of Refugee Affairs – Palestinian Authority, 1999
The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians… but, instead they abandoned them and, forced them to emigrate and to leave.”
PA President Mahmoud Abbas, 1976
“We will smash the country. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
Prime Minister of Iraq Nuri Said, 1948
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
Haled al Azm, Syria’s Prime Minister, 1948-1949
“The fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin were our biggest mistake…Palestinians fled in terror.”
Hazem Nusseibeh, editor – Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948
And now Virginia, back to our regularly scheduled Islamist Apologetics demonstration…
“But Netanyahu’s condescending attitude to our President and by extension our country has to end. Jeffery Goldberg in an article entitled “Dear Mr. Netanyahu, Please Don’t Speak to My President That Way”, in the Atlantic Monthly, said, “…he [Netanyahu] threw something of a hissy fit. It was not appropriate, and more to the point, it was not tactically wise…”
Twenty. Seven. Standing. Ovations. Clearly Congress failed to realize they were being insulted. Myself I thought Netanyahu showed them respect, by simply telling the truth and not playing games with an issue that is of existential aspect to Israel. Look at this bit from…
Top Democrats have joined a number of Republicans in challenging President Obama’s policy toward Israel, further exposing rifts that the White House and its allies will seek to mend before next year’s election.
The differences, on display as senior lawmakers addressed a pro-Israel group late Monday and Tuesday, stem from Obama’s calls in recent days for any peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians to be based on boundaries that existed before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, combined with “mutually agreed swaps” of territory.
Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (Nev.), House Minority Whip Steny H. Hoyer (Md.) and other Democrats appeared to reject the president’s reference to the 1967 lines in his latest attempt to nudge along peace talks, thinking that he was giving away too much, too soon.
White House officials say Obama’s assertion did not reflect a shift in U.S. policy. But the president’s comments touched a nerve among pro-Israel activists, drew a rare Oval Office rebuke from Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and instantly became a litmus test in domestic American politics.
Now Obama — whom critics often accuse of employing a play-it-safe governing style in which he waits for others to take the lead — is largely isolated politically in raising the issue of boundaries…
The MPAC writer, who, I think, must have slightly less sense than my char-lady, concludes thusly…
“It is not only the left who has been taken back by Netanyahu’s disrespect to the Oval office but even among the conservatives there is criticism of the way he has demeaned the office of the President of the United States.For peace to be a reality, respect for the White House by Netanyahu must be the first condition to any legitimate process.”
Well Virginia, I do not know why I feel disappointed, after all the whole piece up to that point was also nothing but lies, why shouldn’t the conclusion be more of the same? Here is a link to a compilation of CONGRESSIONAL comments regarding the speech… MPAC has to hate it when people actually go to the SOURCE to refute their propagandistic spin-meister/meistress.
Here is a link to the speech itself… Love it!
After Obama’s amazingly naive speech on peace in the Middle East I just have to repost this wonderful satire by Latma, Caroline Glick‘s Hebrew language humor site.
You have to give Hamas some credit for chutzpah, they really do manage to “Con the World”…
Pre 67 border Safe for Israel? Now, THAT is a Con!
Here we have an interesting video of Obama speaking with Netanyahu I found on Al-JazeeraEnglish at YouTube.
I am not sure Obama is happy about the response from the Muslim world on his attempts to appease them. Maybe reality is setting in and, wonder of wonder, miracles of miracles, Obama is waking up to reality. I doubt his Marxist-friendly version of Islam is quite what the global Muslim community is aiming for.
I think our dear President may have realized that if he allows Iran to nuke Israel only a lightening fast impeachment could save him from the angry mobs; did someone point out that the Obama name could end up being lower down in esteem of historians than the bigoted, and not-so-bright, (last in his class at West Point) Gen. Custer? IS he aware that the stain on his name could exceed that on Jackson’s for his "Trail of Tears" inflicted on the Cherokee nation?
How else can we explain his slow, but steady reversal of attitude on Israel? (If that is really what is happening, instead of simply a more effective "plausible deniability."
Here is a transcript of a recent interview with Israeli TV by Obama; other than his usual racism and self-absorption this is the most open and honest view of Israel I have seen out of the White House since the Election:
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
July 08, 2010
Interview of the President by Yonit Levi, Israeli TV
Diplomatic Reception Room
(Conducted July 7, 2010)
5:23 P.M. EDT
Q President Barack Obama, shalom, and thank you so much for talking with us today.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Q I’d like to actually open up by asking you about hope, which was such a prominent notion in your campaign and in your presidency. And how can you convey that concept of hope to Israelis, who’ve seen so many failed attempts at a peace process?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, look, it’s always a challenge. One of the things I used to say during the campaign but also at the beginning of my presidency is, being hopeful is not the same as being blindly optimistic. I think you have to be clear-eyed about the situation.
And Israelis, rightly, look at the past and have skepticism about what’s possible. They see the enmity of neighbors that surround them in a very tough neighborhood. They see a track record of attempts at peace where, even when concessions were made, a deal could not be consummated. They see rockets fired from Gaza or from areas in Lebanon, and say to themselves that the hatreds or history are so deep-seated that changed is not possible.
And yet, if you think back to the founding of Israel, there were a lot of people who thought that that wasn’t possible either. And if Herzl or Ben-Gurion were looking at Israel today, they would be astonished at what they saw — a country that’s vibrant, that is growing economically at a extraordinary pace, that has overcome not just security challenges but also has been able to overcome challenges related to geography. And so that should be a great source of hope.
Unfortunately Barry just can’t seem to stay in the real world; he prefers the warm dream of "what I want" to the somber reality of "what can be done with what we have."
Iranian fighter turned US spy: Tehran will attack Israel
Former Revolutionary Guard member who relayed its secret operations to CIA for 10 years says Iran will commit ‘most horrendous suicide bombing in human history’ if not stopped
Kahlili accused the Obama Administration of being naïve. According to him, the American overtures are viewed by the Iranian regime as a sign of weakness, while the Iranian people consider the efforts to engage the regime an act of betrayal against their struggle for freedom.
Kahlili said he joined the Revolutionary Guard following the Islamic revolution of 1979, but volunteered to work for the CIA when he became disillusioned with the Khomeini regime after witnessing acts of rape, torture and murder.
Iran, not Turkey has the most secularly oriented population in the Muslim world. Iranians were the only Muslim population to come out into the streets in *sympathy* for America after 9/11. There is little doubt that the Shah abused the Iranian people and that they were justified in wishing him removed. However the general Iranian population had no idea that the end result would be slavery to the most conservative religious elements.
I firmly agree with those that believe that if Obama had shown any support for the Iranian (almost) revolution after their last election the “almost” would be missing completely.
“What is truth?” Pilate said, and washed his hands…
Today’s complex world demands a passion for truth, by which I mean accuracy in description, not some nebulous philosophical notion subject to infinite redefinition.
Mankind has always done best when seeing clearly what was in front of our eyes and applying our creativity and will to the parts we found fun, interesting, or that quite simply sucked. Sadly some people have always preferred to confound truth for their own short term status quotient retarding and delaying the progress of the majority.
This piece started out with me noticing an excerpt, a mere two paragraphs, from the L.A. times. The headline made me pause. I have always loved history and the mental disconnect with what I knew stopped me in mid-click.
Commentary; Islam Claims Jerusalem Too; Mideast: Supporters of Israel consistently attempt to diminish Muslims’ connection to the city.
Los Angeles Times – Los Angeles, Calif.
Author: RIAD ABDELKARIM; HUSSAM AYLOUSH
Date: Jul 25, 2000
At first I noticed that there was a lot of false information and misleading statements in the piece; then I tried to find any fact that was not false. And then I looked up the background of the authors, and found that the pre-fertilizer mass descends in close proximity to the genetically spoiled cow.
First I will look at those two, wonderful paragraphs, then let us turn our attention to having a peak at what our intrepid authors have been up to for the last ten years.
In addition to numerous Koran references, several sayings of the Prophet Muhammad focus on the significance of Jerusalem.
From the first sentence truth and realty are very flexible for Riad and Hussam; Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Quran by name and the only reference at all I can find is to the fact that, very early in his career, he had turned away from the City of the Jews because they had rejected him; this is hardly an intimate, spiritual connection we are talking about here since the name is not even articulated!
The only other “source” of historical “proof” of the ancient connection are hadiths, or sayings of Mohammed, speaking of the al-aqsa (furthest place of worship), a religious term. So, what happened? Let me allow Dr. Daniel Pipes, Islamic scholar, tell the tale:
“The Koran states that God took Mohammed “by night from the sacred mosque in Mecca to the furthest (al-aqsa) place of worship.” When this passage was revealed (about 621), “furthest place of worship” was a turn of phrase, not a specific place. Decades later, the Umayyads built a mosque in Jerusalem and called it Al-Aqsa. Moslems since then understand the passage about the “furthest place of worship” as referring to Jerusalem.”
However our intrepid authors do not mention this, they simply give the evolved version and move on.
In one saying, the Prophet declares that the reward or blessings for a Muslim who prays in Al Aqsa mosque is multiplied 500 times. In another saying, when asked which were the first mosques established on Earth, the Prophet replied that al Haram mosque (in Mecca) was the first, then Al Aqsa mosque (in Jerusalem). Yet another saying advises Muslims not to undertake difficult journeys except to reach three destinations: al Haram mosque in Mecca, the Prophet’s mosque in Medina, and Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.
By now anyone who had doubted the historical connection is supposed to be feeling a bit shamefaced; the blows of falsehood increase in tempo.
While maintaining a strong historical claim to Jerusalem, Muslims also recognize the importance of Jerusalem to the Christian and Jewish faiths.
As is usual with this sort of lie it is put in very reasonable terms, the reader expects things to be just as the author claims in his wounded pride for his noble past. All is not as it seems on the surface.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21530 What does a popular Islamic question and fatwa (their terms, not mine) site www.islam.qa.comseems to disagree with Riad and Hussam:
“It is not permissible for a Muslim to make friends with a mushrik non-Muslim] or to take him as a close friend, because Islam calls on us to forsake the kaafirs and to disavow them, because they worship someone other than Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allaah (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have despaired of (receiving any good in) the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have despaired of those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection)”
This was also the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
1 – It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, “Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2395; Abu Dawood, 4832. Abu ‘Eesa al-Tirmidhi said: this hadeeth is hasan. It was also classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 2519).
Abu ‘Eesa al-Khattaabi said: Rather he warned against keeping company with anyone who is not pious and against mixing with them or eating with them, because eating with a person instills friendship and love in the heart.
…(Ma’aalim al-Sunan, Haamish Mukhtasar Sunan Abi Dawood, 7/185, 186).
2 – It was narrated from Samurah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not live among the mushrikeen [non-Muslims) and do not mix with them, for whoever lives among them or mixes with them is not one of us.” (Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 9/142; al-Haakim, 2/154. He said, it is saheeh according to the conditions of al-Bukhaari. The hadeeth was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilat al-Saheehah, 2/229 with its corroborating reports).
But it is permissible to deal with them in a kind manner in the hope that they might become Muslim.
That is not quiet what I usually think of as respectfor MY religion or faith.
…And Allaah knows best.”
Maybe so, maybe not, but Riad and Hussam seem to feel that it is permissible to leave the truth at the door in the hope we all might become Muslim. They are really getting off the ground now, and the truth is far, far below the clouds…
“Centuries of peaceful Islamic rule over Jerusalem, during which Christian and Jewish religious sites were protected and preserved, illustrate the esteem in which these other monotheistic faiths are held.”
This statement could be refuted with a stack of PhD theses as tall as a house; it does not pass even a cursory inspection outside of the literature produced by the likes of CAIR and the House of Saud.
here is a short list compiled in a few minutes:
After the death of Mohammed (638) a small prayer house was built on Temple Mount, Second Jewish Temple site, almost 50 years later (688 to 691 AD) the Dome of the Rock built as well on the same site.
May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion finished capturing (temporarily) the Old Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; including many ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple. These are and have been for approx 3,000 years, the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.
57 historic synagogues (going back all the way to the 13th century), centers of religious study and Jewish libraries were looted; 12 demolished. Religious structures that remained standing were used as housing and barns; The Western Wall became slums.
Further, the Jordanians refused access to Israeli Jews wishing to visit or worship at the Wailing Wall, Mt. Olives cemetery, Rachel’s tomb, Tomb of Abraham or any other holy places in the West Bank and Jerusalem, violating UN resolutions.
On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones, using them for paving roads, as well as construction material for latrines. After re-occupation in 1967, graves were found open, bones scattered. The cemetery had had a paved road cut though; parking lots and even a gas station were built on what had been Jewish graves. Finally, the Intercontinental Hotel was built at one end of the cemetery grounds; the Jordanian appointed caretaker built his house from stones from the ancient graves.
The Hurva Synagogue, built in the fifteenth century or earlier and the main synagogue for Jerusalem until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 due to Muslim incitements; burned by Arabs(1721) it was rebuilt in the 1800’s to become a well known landmark. In 1948, when captured by the Arab Legion it was dynamited as a show of dominance over the Old Jewish Quarter.
Septemer 1996, Palestinians destroyed a synagogue at Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus, since then periodic attacks have been made on Rachel’s Tomb.
October 2000, The Israelis guarding Joseph’s Tomb were temporarily withdrawn and the shrine was torched to be rebuilt as a mosque!
Let us not forget what was done to those Buddha statues!
I want to interject here a few non-Jewish examples so no one thinks this is a solely Muslim/Israel thing.
In india in the 11th century Mahmud Ghaznavi conducted raids on Temples regularly to finance his other wars. In the early 13th Delhi Sultans carried on a policy of selective temple desecration for “political” ends. In addition to these and many, many other examples of expedient or politically motivated Temple destruction even the apologist author of Temple Destruction and Muslim States in Medieval India, Richard M. Eaton claims that spanning the period from 1192 to 1729, “one may identify eighty instances of temple desecration” that were motivated only by religious zeal and bigotry.
And then there was the Cordova Mosque, built in Cordova, Spain over the former main Visigothic Church; eventually rededicated by the Spanish as a Cathedral.
“This period of Muslim rule also demonstrates that Muslims have a proven track record of being faithful and just custodians of the Holy City. To this day, the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher are entrusted to a Muslim family.”
Oh really now? Virginia, shall we look a tad closer at the history of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher?
A quick Wikipedia search revealsa slightly different tale than one of devoted and compassionate custodianship. For one thing the aforementioned keys were stolen by the conquering Muslims, who then assigned them to the family, sort of…
“In 1192, Saladin assigned responsibility for it to two neighboring Muslim families. The Joudeh were entrusted with the key, and the Nusseibeh, who had been the custodians of the church since the days of Caliph Omar in 637, retained the position of keeping the door.”
What has been the quality of the stewardship?
“On October 18, 1009, under Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, orders for the complete destruction of the Church were carried out. It is believed that Al-Hakim “was aggrieved by the scale of the Easter pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which was caused specially by the annual miracle of the Holy Fire within the Sepulchre. The measures against the church were part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine and Egypt, which involved a great deal of other damage: Adhemar of Chabannes recorded that the church of St George at Lydda ‘with many other churches of the saints’ had been attacked, and the ‘basilica of the Lord’s Sepulchre destroyed down to the ground’. …
European reaction was of shock and dismay, with far-reaching and intense consequences. For example, Clunaic monk Raoul Glaber blamed the Jews, with the result that Jews were expelled from Limoges and other French towns. Ultimately, this destruction provided an impetus to the later Crusades..”
Well, there we have Riad and Hussam’s 2000 article in a nutshell. Or at least the summery. But that was 2000, what – you ask, have they been up to since? I am SO glad you asked!
It seems Riad has been to Israel where he was mistaken for a terrorist supporter and detained for a while by the IDF, Jesse Jackson Managed to get this member of THE HOLY LAND FOUNDATION released and back home to L.A. post haste. He is an internal medicine doctor but I cannot find any actual ratings for him in practice.
His partner Hussum’s website has this to say:
Hussam Ayloush is the Southern California Executive Director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations(CAIR) (see: http://www.cair.com). Mr. Ayloush frequently lectures on Islam, media relations, civil rights, hate crimes and international affairs. He has consistently appeared in local, national, and international media advocating and articulating the mainstream Muslim position on issues. Full biography at:
As you all may know CAIR was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trials. For such moderates it is strange just how many convicted terror supporters these men have worked with. But, I am sure they must be sincere – horribly misinformed about history and of questionable knowledge regarding the meaning of the word “respect”; but, surely GOOD AMERICANS both!
Here is the latest in our attempt to debate the blogger in India who runs the Prophetrejectors.blogspot.com site. As the exchange has developed I was beginning to think that I mistook Mansoor for a solid Islamist; it seemed he might really be just one significant disillusionment from being a moderate who still supports the traditional to a real Western-style moderate.
I am about ready to give up that position. Mansoor Muhammed seems to be completely unaware of the fact that everything he considers “decent” about his position comes from Western ethics and philosophy. The only thing about his view of the future peace that fits traditional Islam is his fantasy that Traditional Islam is not the biggest threat to the kind of tolerant, multi-cultural utopia he envisions.
Imagine what a non “under-fatwa-for-heresy” Imam would say about most of this response to my recitations of facts regarding Israel; I will put my reaction in parenthesis next to each line in this list to give my own version of an “ideal and fair” settlement of the Palestinian Mandate dispute.
Let me begin this article with my stand on the Israel – Palestine issue.
1. I do not wish the Arabs to send Israel to oblivion.
And, despite the words you tried to cram down my throat, I have never said I WANTED a single Human killed for anything less than “right now murderous attack” self-defense. That said, I agree with the sages who said that to have peace you must be ready to go to war. I don’t have to like it, I just have to accept what I need to do to fight those who would kill EVERYONE that they can not control.
2. I do not wish to evict the Jews from middle east.
That is a good thing, given that many of them have been almost completely ethnically cleansed already from numerous countries. Completely from Saudi (enslaved by the House of Saud) Arabia.
I hear Arabs mostly got to stay in Israel if they did not take up arms in ’48 or run away. The ones that were expelled for merely being on the side that decided on civil war I have limited sympathy for. But given how they all were raped by the Arab leadership and stuffed into camps forever and ever and ever to be used as political tools gives me back most of it; at least for the ones who would rather see their children grow to be happy adults than use them to bribe Allah to allow them into heaven with their children’s body in 47 pieces across Tel Aviv.
3. Though the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was illegal, i know that this cannot be undone. Keeping world peace in mind I wish that Israel do something good for Palestinians and middle east in general in return of the land that they stole.
Here is where we seriously disagree. You have accepted whole a version of history that has been invented and re-invented several times over 6 decades in full view of a short-attention-span world. I have personally witnessed a fair amount of the actual events, heard what the participants said THEN.
The creation of the State of Israel was completely legal by the only authority that exited in the world at the time with even limited recognized sovereignty over the area. Take it in Sir, There has never been a country, nation or even a people living there who called themselves Palestinian Arabs, Or Palestinian Muslims; this did not change until the nineteen SIXTIES, as a tactic to gain sympathy for the “occupied” people, who in fact live on disputed land that is not EITHER Arab or Jewish until a final settlement ACCORDING TO ALL INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT HAS JURISDICTION. It is also a plain fact that none of the Jewish settlements are technically illegal in the disputed territories. Since the establishment of the final Mandate for Palestine in 1920 the Jews have an internationally recognized RIGHT to settle as individuals anywhere from the Jordan to the sea; what is not given by the Mandate itself is sovereignty over NON-Jews ALREADY there. There was envisioned a population transfer, where Jews from Arab areas would change places with Arabs from Jewish areas to create two COHERENT AND SELF CONSISTENT nations. In fact the Palestinian state WAS created, but not in Israel, it is called Jordan today and it was created from the Palestinian Mandate specifically to be a larger part given to MUSLIMS as a bribe to stop opposing the will of the entire international community. As far as I have heard they are still there unmolested for as long as they do not send their tanks toward the border with intent to slaughter Jews.
4. I wish Israel to get back to the borders it had in 1947-48.
Really? Here they are:
Please take note of the LEGAL IMPLICATIONS of the fact that the UN Partition PLAN was rejected by the Arabs, who started a civil, then a conventional WAR to defy a legal UN mandate.
By doing so they also left the 1920 to 1948 (YOUR selected date) Mandate border as the Last Legal Border ™.
The Jordanians attempted to take and hold Jerusalem which, it was hoped up to that time, could be an international city open to, but also neutral to, all three Abrahamic faiths. The Jordanians agreed at the ceasefire (’49 to ’67 map; Arabs were in retreat at the time the lines were frozen) to allow free access to the Holy sites, but never allowed Jews access, and barely allowed properly dhimmi-churched Christians until 1967 when Egypt attempted to finish what they failed to do in ’48.
As you can see by the next map (’67 to ’73), that was not the best idea.
5. I wish for peace between the two states.
But, one of the biggest obstacles to peace is that the Arab factions have, since 1917 when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after their failed support of Imperialistic Germany in WWI, consistently failed to even try to form a stable government for the administration of a state that has as its goal the WELFARE of its citizens, as opposed to using them as fodder in a long, patient war. The entire chain of pseudo-governing “resistance” Thuggiganizations since Arafat’s appearance admitted inventing the CONCEPT of a “Palestinian People”, solely Arab and Muslim, AS A TOOL TO GAIN SUPPORT IN THEIR BATTLE AGAINST ISRAEL.
This is not a disputed item, it is public record!
Until recently the plan has always been for Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon to annex the appropriate pieces once Israel is broken up “from the Jordan to the Sea“…. as they attempted to do in ’48, ’67, and ’73 without once setting a goal of “freeing” the “Palestinian People” to form a self-determining Muslim state; a locally self-sovereign Arab state where none had ever existed before.
6. I wish that both Palestine and Israel to have good relations.
Assuming we can all agree to settle just where is Israel and where is “Palestine” and the local Arabs will accept it and recognize it not continue their Jihad against the resultant Israeli state I can agree with that whole-heartedly. Last time I checked though the party line across the Muslim world was No. No. No. on all three propositions.
7. The Christians, Jews and the Muslims – all have the right on Jerusalem. I wish Jerusalem to be a multi – religious capital of the world.
So did a lot of people, including Israel, before 1948! You would have to have a chat with YOUR leaders to get the rationalization as to why it is not one now and for the last 60 years.
This is a special sore spot because of the horrible record modern Muslims have for administering non-Muslim pilgrims in areas they have responsibility for, such as the Temple Mount. Especially since Islam has by far the weakest RELIGIOUS identification with the city. Sorry to hurt your feelings but, Westerners do not care what your faith tells you, the historical evidence all points to no significant connection of Islam with Jerusalem except as its use TWICE (an ancient Muslim leader under ban from Mecca and the modern Palestinian movements) as a political tool to be discarded as soon as its usefulness abates.
8. Jerusalem shouldn’t be under any single religious entity.
Once again, it has been the Muslim leaders who have prevented this from happening; go ask THEM why they don’t move that Jerusalem be declared international territory.
9. I wish that the Arabs extend the hand of peace by accepting the Israeli borders that it had when it was newly created in 1948. From Israel’s end, I wish it hand over all lands that it occupied in 1967. From american end, I wish it to aid Palestine as much as it aids Israel economically and politically and I wish that America stop all military aid to Israel on the slightest inclination of peace from either sides.
That is cool by me! Here is the last legal border before the Arabs declared the UN partition plan dead and attacked Israel with five armies. I will even support making Jerusalem an international city if the Muslims give up sole control of the Temple Mount (which was GIVEN to as a gesture of goodwill by the Jews).
10. After this is done, I wish each of the parties to let go of the past and focus on the future in turning Middle – east into a Paradise from the hell that they have made out of it.
That should not be a problem, the Israelis have tried numerous times to get the Arabs to allow them to teach them how to make the desert and waste blossom as they did with the land they had legally purchased from its absentee owners, mostly foreign Muslims; mostly Arab themselves -, isn’t Arab solidarity a wonderful thing!!!
I would just love to be a fly on the wall when Mansoor gets up after Jummah in Hyderabad and proposes his “solution” to his fellow worshippers and Imams; as long as I am hiding out of reach of flying objects, blood and gunfire.
Now, after demonstrating to us all how enlightened and loving he is, Mansoor will proceed to demonstrate that the devout and gentle Muslim he is has no problem demonizing, insulting and in general bearing false witness against a non-Muslim; Me.
I recieved a response from a 47 year old anti – palestinian guy going by the name Dewhitney from riverside, California. who claims to know the all truth about the middle east mess.
First lie: I have never said anything close to this, I just have more historical information than Mansoor’s ideological leash holders have allowed him to receive. I hold no grudges; I too would like peace in the region. Not the peace of Submission, but the peace of Enlightenment.
He doesnt seem to care about solving the ongoing crisis but instead rattles on and on about how inhuman, barbaric, terroristic and murderous the palestini side is. He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while at the same time he wouldn’t mind someone obliterating Islam and the muslims off the face of the earth.
As nasty a libel as this is I almost fell off my chair laughing when I imagined Mansoor typing away, a holy smile on his face, “…He pics Hamas for chartering to obliterate israel off its existence while at the same time…“ and he suddenly realizes THERE IS NO “While at the same time”. So he invented a blood libel (he must have stolen my copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Lie-On) and inserted it into my mouth; I hope he at least washed his hands first!
He labels Islam and the muslims to be the sole root cause of the entire issue. The following is his reply and my response to it. Find his previous replies and my responses Here. Scroll down the page to find his comments.
He Quotes me – “I have no god – damn idea what u believ in. you cant just say this land belongs to them that and land belongs to them etc.”
Dewhitney - What is your point, oh insulting one who claims others are being nasty?
When the Ottomans still ruled the area a census showed very few Arabs or Jews in the Judea/Samaria area…only AFTER the Ottoman empire collapsed did the British come in to administer the area, there was NO SHRED OF A LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT after the Turks left. Because of this the vast majority of EVERYONE in the area is descended from fairly recent immigrants. NEITHER side has a “native” claim though; the Arabs have NO claim that is not attached to warlike conquest, while the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Jerusalem.In any case the Jewish “clam” was established far, far earlier than any Arab claims.
When the British established a civilized regime and the Zionists started steadily moving there, THEN the Arab population rose due to the new jobs from the industry of the new rulers and the new immigrants.
This is all easily confirmed public data my dear friend who puts others down as nasty and arrogant all the while being as nasty and arrogant as he can manage.
One of the regions administered by the British was set aside as a place where Jews would have a RIGHT to SETTLE (not RULE the Arabs), simply a permanent right to live in their ancient homeland.
Me - Right to live in ancient homeland?????Past is past… stop using what happened 2000 – 3000 years ago as an excuse to say Israel has a right to settle there….
You miss the point; only sovereignty ended in 93 AD; Jewish residency never ceased. If all the Arabs and Jews whose grandparents came to The Mandate and settled from 1850 to 1948 went to their respective homelands both Jewish and Arab populations would drop by 90% or more! Under the Ottomans it was a wasteland, and hardly worth the Caliph’s bother.
First the British then, the Zionists BUILT the infrastructure and the jobs and reclaimed the land that then drew many Arabs to the area over those decades.
No ONE has the right to settle down in a place where people are already living since hundreds of years…BUT they can difinitely come and live … mingle with the crowd … be one with them as brothers as any ordinary people. But you dont call this as “right to settle” as if you are demanding land back. I guess you didnt read my point about aborigines, dravidians, native south africans and red indians – all of whom were evicted systematically.
THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE MANDATE Mansoor!
But the Arabs said No, and shot up things. So the UN tried the Partition Plan, and the Arabs said HELL NO, and launched full scale war.
Don’t blame ME for the historical records of MUSLIMS, TURKS, JEWS and BRITISH from this time.
By the pains that you are going through to defend this dogmatic stupidity i assume that have packed your bags to get out as soon as any of the local natives comes knocking your door singing the “right to settle down” song.
To each his own, I happen to hope you might actually be able to lift your head from the floor under your Imam’s foot and look at undisputed historical data for yourself, without having to let said Imam TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK about it.
The Jews could have settled in middle east as any other normal ordinary people.
Tell that to the Arabs who lived then in the entire region, OUTSIDE of the Mandate, who sent FIVE ARMIES to make sure that would not happen. There would have been NO STATE of Israel if the Arabs had not rejected their being allowed to have a right to settle. No Arab STATE OF ANY KIND EXISTED THERE. There was Ottoman control, then chaos, then the British took responsibility for keeping the region from falling into desperate poverty and anarchy; did a good job too, many Arabs moved to “the City of Jobs” from 1917 to the ’30s!
Your Imams might have you convinced the sky is yellow with polka dots but, all the OBJECTIVE evidence all points to its being blue most of the time. Your refusal to moderate your opinion based on accepted facts is a bit disturbing. when you then accuse ME of genocidal intentions you go far beyond simply disturbing, you become pathetic in your religious and cultural insecurity.
Now you would say …yeah .. the israelis did came with sweet smiles on their faces with humbleness dripping all over but the barbaric animalistic arab apes shooed them away..right? Coudlnt they have just come there and lived .. as normal ordinary human beings..????
but no no..they had to play the religion card and carve lands out of 5 countries and announce to the world with pomp and show that this land is theirs only ( oh sorry i mean .. the right to settle..)
Do you realize you are telescoping about 5 years of complex negotiations that the Arabs REJECTED into some kind of Jewish invasion and declaration of Israel inside a nation you imagine, but that never has existed yet!
aaaah …….but i guess you didnt know that Land bought by the Jewish National Fund is held in the name of the Jewish people and can never be sold or even leased back to Arabs ????? this was and is their attitude till today.
So bloody what? You said it, they bought it! Over 90% of it!!!
PEOPLE ARE EXECUTED by HAMAS and Fateh if they are found to have sold land to Jews!!! How many Jews have been executed for selling illegally to Muslims? Why do you even bring up such a half-assed, one-sided non-argument? AT BEST we would have to simply say Both are wrong to make the distinction and move on. So, shall we just move on back to a real discussion?
Hey long long ago … there was this supercontinent called as pangea …At one point of time Antartica and india were one mass in southern hemisphere . later india broke from antartica and drifted north to join Eurasia.. You know, talking to you i realise that the actual homeland of indians is antartica. So its perfectly fine with you if tomorrow 2 billion indians would suddenly hop off onto a ship to antartica singing the “right to live in their ancient homeland” song eh?
Sigh; just when I thought your last “argument” had topped the chart on inanity and irrelevance in pursuit of your ego not having to face being wrong – and you top THAT by a good margin; I guess I have to admire talent, even if it is for bullshit.
this is the problem with you adults – still living in the old ancient world with outdated ideas. Move on and live and let others live.
Sometimes when you talk like that I get the impulse to look over my shoulder at whoever you THINK you are talking to. This imaginary foe of yours does not seem to live here.
Islam has had a long long time since its more heretical (and civilized) branches considered Judeo – Christian style scriptural interpretation. They lost.
The ANTI-reform or fundamentalist forces won instead, in mirror image of what occurred with Judaism and Christianity each in their own time.
Dewhitney - BUT, many of the Arabs, mainly those following that Nazi-loving prankster Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, freaked out at the concept…I dunno why, something about apes and pigs and the end of days and heads cut off… I try not to listen to idiots.
Me - good. hope you keep it up. Likewise be fair and dont listen to idiots from israeli side too.Dewhhitney - SO, this “holy” man starts a guerilla war against Jewish settlers and does all he can to make sure not a single Jew remains in THE WORLD.THIS IS THE MAN WHO GAVE HITLER the idea for a “final solution”, and formed an Muslim S.S. division to help with the genocide!!!!!Me – If this is true i condemn this man and his policies.
Sadly it is true, I am glad to hear you say that though, be careful which Muslim adult you let hear you talk that way though!
Dewhitney - Still with me? See now that you can’t just look at what is going on NOW and pretend that you know who is the bad guy. But, anytime you whine and whimper about ANYTHING the Jews might or might not have done you need to know who has been the aggressor SINCE THE FIGHTING STARTED in the 1920s.Me – Nope i dont pretend to know the bad guy.. I do know. Il enlighten you in detail about this shortly.Dewhitney - The BEST you could do that way, if you really are what you say you are, is a neutral; declaring that BOTH sides have lost the moral high ground in your mind.Me – Isn’t this what i have been trying to tell you in my other post ” This is what i believe: – This land.. this earth belongs to all human beings. If I had the authority and power i would make them all live side by side with whatever faith they choose. yeah with people like u around this seems to be a fantasy.”?????
You forget that the cultural system I am defending has not been into using human religions as an excuse to slaughter our neighbors in numbers for about 500 years. How are you and YOUR neighbors coming along with that lesson?
Hindu’s attack and kill Muslim men, women and children …
Muslims jailed for killing Hindus
Hindu Rioters Kill 60 Muslims in India
Muslims kill a Hindu hotel employee for demanding payment
Protest movie ‘Slumdog Millionaire’
Muslims attempt to kill Hindu pilgrims.
I do not see that MY culture has anything to hang its head over when facing yours my dear fellow.
Dewhitney - You also need to see who has kept their agreements and international law, and who has violated them all freely.Dewhitney -You keep getting on me for not condemning Israel, how about the idiots who are insuring the deaths of THEIR OWN WOMEN AND CHILDREN SO THEY CAN SHOW IT ON CNN and beat their breast over how oppressed they are?Me – So you admit that you dont condemn Isreal???? and who was that who freely violates agreement and international law??? ill let you have a taste of this international law and agreements that you are talking about.
You wont find a single BINDING UN RESOLUTION against anything I have said.
Remember the famous war that israel waged on palestine for taking two of their soldiers hostage in 2009? yeah the same war that beats the crap out of all human logic of justice wherein a country goes to war on its neighbor for taking two of its soldiers hostage. Apparently even then there was this “international agreement and treaty” for an eyewash which the palestinians broke. This is the treaty as explained to me by the one whos side broke it – a palestinian : – I hope you having english as your first language and all woudnt mind her english.
“imagine this : your are a man your twan is sealed and surrounded by military forces no food no electricity no medical supplies allowed to enter. Your wife is pregnant but you cant send her to a hospital cause its useless as there are no medical supplies available and during the peace treaty supplies are not allowed to enter. Your son is hungry but you cant go and buy him some food cause its peace treaty no food allowed to enter. Its winter your wife and son feeling cold but you can do nothing. Electricity is down and no gas supply. Why ? Are you fool !? It’s peace treaty, that’s why. oh and just to keep the peace treaty existing, Israel helicopters bomb us from time to time to prevent us from being getting bored from hunger and cold and pain. They are entertaining us with some bombings! so everyone chill!”
Sucks when a people start an unjust war, then lose and still refuse to let the war end and just be at peace doesn’t it? Did you bother to take account of the actions of the Palestinian “leaders” at this time? Did you ask why the people support the leaders who won’t let ISRAEL just live?
you were probably working and then go home get some sleep then call your friends saying whassup up dudes? what are we going to do today? lets gather up any play play station, no no no lets go to a movie! so does any one think about what happened in Gaza? does any one even tried to help them during 2 months of hunger and pain ? all their people are surrounded. Some of them died in hospitals. No one want to help them.
Especially when you are talking about the hospital Hamas leaders hid in, using the dead from a conflict they had started as bloody prostitutes of grief on CNN.
Tell me Muslims would not go to war if Israelis crossed into Egypt and took two soldiers… or Lebanon, or Jordan. Fact that Mansoor doesn’t want to hear number 666: Palestinian prisoners of war in Israel get Red Cross/Crescent visits and support, How many Red Cross packages has Shalit gotten you disingenuous twit? How many letters to his family you sanctimonious farter of Taqqiya!
But wait, it gets better. Israel doesn’t want to let any supplies to enter!So what happens? – people die in hospital , every body is hungry , its dark cause there is no electricity , and its cold. Isn’t this so so wonderful life to live!?
Gee, kinda makes you think that Hamas has failed the Palestinian people in theri trust to kep them secure!!. But as long as a few Jews dies THE LEADERS DO NOT CARE. I DARE you to go watch an hour of program clips on Memritv.org. go see what Hams puts on TV. I DARE YOU YOUNG MA;, or are you afraid to see truth from your own co-religionists?
Me – These are the peace treaties that you rant about eh??? WOW..These are sooo peace inspiring!
Dewhitney – Who is worse? An honorable soldier who FINALLY has had enough with the barbarians, or the barbarian who will put missiles and weapons in a Mosque or school or hospital BECAUSE they know that either IDF (who do NOT target civilians, if they did there would BE NO Palestinians!) will decide not to fire, or the Muslims will have some nice, bloody corpses of their OWN WOMEN & CHILDREN to flaunt and use as cynically as any Soviet Aparatchick ever used a peasant.
Who is worse my friend? Who is worse?
Me - Of course the barbarian who will put misslies and weapons in a mosque or school or hospital is worse .. and in this case those barbarians are the israeli soldiers. You dont think so? then check out : -
1. 20. At 9:00 PM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Taqwa in Al-Shiekh Radwan neighborhood north of Gaza city, and re-bombed it four hours later, killing 4 Palestinian civilians leaving many injured, and resulted in the destruction of the mosque that was composed of four floors and the damaged around 10 neighboring houses.
2. GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel bombed a mosque it said was used to store weapons and destroyed the homes of more than a dozen Hamas operatives Friday…. At the same time, international calls for a cease-fire have been growing, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected in the region next week to push for a halt to the violence.
- AP IBRAHIM BARZAK and MATTI FRIEDMAN | January 2, 2009
3. The Masjid of the Martyr Imad Aqel in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in north Gaza, the bombing of the mosque by the Israeli warplanes on Dec. 28, 2008 resulted in the collapse of an adjacent house, causing the death of 5 sisters from one family and injuries of number of citizens who are living nearby.
4. Masjid Al-Saraya was completely destroyed on Dec. 28, 2008 through the air bombing of Al-Saraya governmental compound in the center of Gaza city.
5. The Israeli warplanes have targeted Majid Al-Abbas and the neighboring Al-Abbas police station in Gaza city on Dec. 28, 2008 that resulted in substantial damage.
6. Masjid Al-Shifaa Mosque was bombed by air Dec. 28, 2008, inside the mosque were a lot of a relatives of ill persons and four of them were killed. The mosque is located near Al-Shifaa medical complex in Gaza city. The bombing created a state of confusion among the medical staff and teams who are working in the hospital, deepening the difficulties in the hospital after being subjected to significant damage by fragments of missiles and pieces of stones and cement. Israeli missiles turned the mosque to a pile of rubble. The two rockets that directly struck the dome of the mosque resulted in two large holes, the stones and the columns of the mosque scattered and spread out in adjacent roads, houses, and shops causing a lot of damage.
7. Masjid Al-Fadilah, Rafa, Palestine, Jan. 11, 2009. Masjid Abu Bakr Al-Sideeq is located in Beit Hanoun town in the far north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli warplanes have fired several missiles towards the mosque on Dec. 29, 2008 causing complete destruction. The dead and injured had been recovered from under the rubble.
8. On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Ezz Al-Dien Al-Qassam martyr mosque in Abasan / Khan-Younis in south of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The Israeli authorities did not mention any reason for this bombing.
9. On Dec. 29, 2008: Bombing of Masjid Al-Ribat in Rafah resulted in seven 7 deaths 3 of them are children.
10. Masjid Al-Abrar in Rafah was bombed on Dec. 29, 2009 and again on Jan. 15, 2009. The mosque has been completely destroyed.
11. On Dec. 29, 2008 the Israeli warplanes have bombed Masjid Riad Al-Saaliheen mosque in the north of the Gaza Strip.
12 Around 3:00 AM at Tuesday, Dec. 30, 2008, at dawn, the occupation warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Faruq Omar bin Al-Khatab in Al-Breij camp in the center of Gaza Strip destroying it completely.
13. Masjid Abu Hanifa Nu’man located in Tal Alhawa south of Gaza city, was targeted with four missiles on Dec. 31, 2008, destroying it completely, injuring five women, and damaging a number of adjacent houses.
14. On Jan. 1, 2009 the occupation forces fired a rocket that caused damage to Masjid Khalil Al-Rahman in the Abasan area east of Khan Younis.
15. On Jan. 1, 2009 an Israeli bombing has targeted Masjid Al-Nasr, an ancient mosque in Beit Hanoun town in the north of Gaza Strip resulting in its destruction. The mosque was built in A.D. 736.
16. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli warplanes targeted Masjid Al-Khulafa’ Al-Rashideen in Jabaliya camp for Palestinian refugees in the north of Gaza Strip, the Israeli forces fired several rockets towards the mosque and destroyed it, and injured several Palestinians and damaged several neighboring houses.
17 On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli forces bombed Masjid Omar Bin Abdel Aziz in Beit Hanoun causing enormous damage to its buildings.
18. On Jan. 2, 2009 the Israeli F-16′s bombed the mosque of the Martyr Ibrahim Al-Maqadmah in Beit Lahia town far north of Gaza with a large bomb weighting 500 kg when tens of worshipers were performing the prayers, resulting in a massacre of 16 people and injuring dozens.
19. The Israeli warplanes at the dawn on Jan. 6, 2009 bombed Masjid Hasan Al-Banna in Al-Zaitoon neighborhood north of Gaza Strip destroying it completely. The bombing injured several people and the burnt a number of neighboring houses.
21. About 11:50 AM on Jan. 7, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Noor Al-Mohammed located in AL-Jala’ street in Gaza city, causing complete destruction to the mosque, killing and injuring several Palestinians, and damaging neighboring houses.
22. On Jan. 7, 2009 at about 2:00 A.M., the Israeli warplanes bombed the police center in Bani Saheela east of Khan-Younis, resulting in destroying it and damage in the neighboring buildings including Masjid Hamza, with no injuries.
23. On Jan. 8, 2009 the Israeli forces fired artillery shells towards Masjid Ibad Al-Rahman mosque in Wadi Al-Salqa village.
24. Occupation forces destroyed Masjid Al-Ribat in Khan-Younis on Jan. 9, 2009.
25. On Jan. 10, 2009 Israeli warplanes bombed Masjid Al-Ssafa in Al-Breij camp resulting in its partial destruction.
26. On Jan. 11, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Israeli F16′s fired many missiles on Dar Al-Fadeela mosque that follows the house of virtue orphans which includes elementary private school, the college of Dar Al-Da’wa for human sciences, and a computer center. That is located in Taha Hussein street in Khirbit Al-Adas neighborhood north-east of Rafah.
27. Masjid Bilal bin Rabah in Rafah south of Gaza was destroyed completely in the first week of the war against Gaza, the photos of the destruction of this mosque were displayed by media around the globe.
28. Masjid Al-Salateen in Jabaliya was targeted by a bombing on Jan. 14, 2009.
29. On Dec. 28, 2008 Masjid Al-Estiqamah in Rafah city was significantly damaged as a result of bombing in adjacent areas by Israeli warplanes. The mosque is located in a densely populated residential area causing the damage in tens of neighboring houses.
This is just the tip of the ice burg.
I am sure, Taqqiya is major Islamic product. Each and every one was used as a MILITARY storage or staging area BY THE PALESTINIANS.
Frankly I think that ANYONE who decided to use their holy places, hospitals, civilian homes and schools for human shielding (SO AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW MY FRIEND) deserves a rocket up their ass from THEIR OWN PEOPLE let alone a defensive attack from their neighbors whom they seek to destroy!
I could lay my hands on only these. am Sure there are hundreds of others. But whats the use of it? Does it help anyone?? Does all this solve anyones problem??? Just know that what u believe in isnt as saintly as u think and just have a thought in your mind that it is perfectly possible that what all you thought might have been wrong afterall. I am not asking you to hate Jews. Dont. likewise dont hate the muslims either. All I wish is for you to broaden up that 47 year old brain of yours and think in a way that is constructive.
You might start by listening to what I actually say instead of demonizing me and answering the arguments of the fantasy demon. I hate ANY ideologies that cause people to pretend their crimes are holy. If you ever bother to read my work you will see that I go after ANY religious leader who is untrue to the concept of us ALL being equal in the eyes of Deity.
You make the assumption that I am tribalistic and biased simply because you are surrounded by bias and tribalism, but you have no actual evidence of this that came from ME.
Dewhitney – Also, it can’t be called genocide when the population constantly RISES!!! It doesn’t even qualify as ethnic cleansing. . To call it slaughter, or, genocide is to insult and degrade every person who ever suffered a REAL genocide.Me – So its fine with you if tomorrow a nuke is dropped in palestine killing most of them and you would get away with it saying ..”hey this is not genocide at all..after all these guys will multiply anyway in another decade.So its all cool” eh. I have no words to comment on this. Beats the crap out of “humanity” and “humaneness”.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? I am not fine with nukes dropping anywhere. You are a slanderous thuggie of false-righteousness to pretend that I would.
You surely know I meant that their population has NEVER GONE DOWN, FROM ANY QUARTER TO THE NEXT, IN 60 YEARS and more! ONLY UP, UP, UP. Kind of hard to get an ethnic cleansing against a helpless, tiny, unarmed-in-a-modern-sense bunch of pacifists in bloody keffiyahs out of that statistic my dear little man with big delusions!
Dewhitney - Since when can people who START A CIVIL WAR, then call in (SEVERAL) FOREIGN, RELIGIOUSLY GENOCIDAL ARMIES to be unleashed upon their neighbors, in defiance of international law, AND LOSE, expect to have a right to the land they tried to steal?
Why does no one care about the German ethnics expelled from Eastern Europe after WWII? Because you are not a refugee if your side STARTED the war and then lost…ooops so sorry, better luck next time! But then they have already tried three times though, and gotten beaten badly to soundly each time; a superstitious person might think Allah did not support the project. : – )
Remember, if the Arabs had NOT gone ballistic and criminal, the Jews would have been a minority under Arab rule, protected by the UN. but, without sovereign power. The biggest “naqba” of the time was, quite simply, the stupidity and arrogance of the Arab/Muslim leadership.
Me - mm to summarize your opinion: -You say what israel is doing right now is perfectly right and justified.
And when did I say that? For that matter when did we even get to discussing what I thought about ANY specific action of Israel in its own context? I have been trying to get you just to admit that Israel HAS a context!
You say that Palestine , Muslims and Arabs are wrong and that they deserve what they are getting.
In the majority of the cases where they have dealt with Israel, yes I do. I have seen too many incontrovertible quotes, films, and statistics to have much sympathy for people who celebrate a woman blowing up her child to kill civilians and then claim to be victims of the legal counter attacks to their terrorism.
Got a problem with that? Then produce facts from the ground AT THE TIMES UNDER DISCUSSION that contradict me, from Turkish, Arab or Jewish sources. Go to it, I will wait.
You say Palestinians are hooligans while israelis are poor saints who only defend when offended. ok… lets see……
Hamas and Fateh and PIG and Muslim Brotherhood = hooligans? OH YES!
Israelis = saints? Hardly! Nope, doesn’t fly, just they are just Western culture humans, love their children, not death. Being human some are as nutty as any other groups nut-balls. Produce many fewer than ANY Muslim country on their borders however.
DeWhitney quoting me - “I know you have gone ga ga over this quotes. If i go by this quotes then Australia originally belongs to the Aborigines, America belongs to the red indians, India to the dravidians and South africa to the african natives.”
Dewhitney – Such a shiny, innocent face as you distort realty until it screams in pain…The difference is that no one TOOK anything from the Arabs that wasn’t already in foreign hands!
Me- really?? No one took anything away from arabs is it? Visit earth and there you will find a land ISRAEL – which wasnt on the map 50 years ago. Yeah it was there in the books..so was Atlantis ..
Tell me where Palestine the Nation was. What was its flag? Who were its leaders? When was it founded and how many changes of leadership did it have by 1948?
The answer to all of the above is N/A – NEVER HAPPENED. The British tried to get the Arabs to take building a nation of their own seriously, but the Mufti had too many people trying to destroy all compromise for the Arab leaders to get around to it.
DeWhitney - “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians… but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave.” —PA President Mahmoud Abbas, 1976
We will smash the country. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
—Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, 1948
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.
Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” —Haled al Azm, Syrian Prime Minister, 1948-1949
Or they left from their own fears BEFORE the war hit their own doorstep.
“The fabricated atrocity stories about Deir Yassin “were our biggest mistake…Palestinians fled in terror.” —Hazem Nusseibeh, editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948?
“So if these native guys suddenly come knocking one fine day and settle in their native lands BY DRIVING AWAY THE LOCALs”
Who drove who away? Can’t you read a TIMELINE? ARABS ATTACKED FIRST! Not only that but, MOST of the Muslims who left where not forced out by Israelis! Most left either because THEIR LEADERS told them to get out of the way while those foreign armies slaughtered the Jews or because they panicked with no threat at all. Less than 20% were expelled AFTER THE CONVENTIONAL WAR STARTED with ARAB tanks invading.
Me – Lets go by your logic. so you say that most of the muslims willingly left the land right? then why the hell are they being stopped from coming back?
Because they left after starting an illegal WAR! They expected the Arab armies would WIN and they could come back shortly and TAKE THE JEWISH LANDS. As they did in ALL Muslim Arab nations in 1948. MORE Jews who had done NOTHING BUT LIVE IN A MUSLIM RUN COUNTRY were expelled than all the Arabs who left Israel! The Jews SETTLED their fellows,bWITH NO AID MOEY FROM THE UN!
The Palestinian Arabs you ask? What about them? Their leaders USED THEM as pawns in poverty in camps to win political points while their children starved and those leaders refused to allow them to be settled and get on with their lives. Until the aid scam got going, now almost half of the Palestinians, are likely to not BE real locals but sneak thieves of that identity who have flooded in over the years, SOMETHING ADMITTED BY UNWRA!!!
why the hell are they getting fenced and bulldozed after all they are merely coming back to their land which they had willingly left according to you.
By international law thy do NOT have any real “right” claim that land, they forfeited that with three aggressive wars, all of which they lost.
Dewhitney Quoting me – “Dont you see what is happening here?”Dewhitney - Yes, I do, I see the Muslim leadership using the right given in Islam to lie for the benefit of their “deen” to pursue selfish, political ends while THEIR OWN PEOPLE get ground up in the middle! Arab/Muslim history in a nutshell.
““You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews bypsychological warfare and population explosion ….I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews.”Yasser Arafat to an Arab audience in Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996
“Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong. This intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton.”—PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, March 3, 2001
“We may lose or win [tactically], but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river to the sea [euphemism for all of Israel]. Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”—Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, April 2001
“The destruction of Israel and the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem…is the principal objective of Hezbollah.”—Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, June 2, 20006
“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”—Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, 2002
“Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children.” —Jan Egeland, UN Under- Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs
“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” —Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, art. 2829
“The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.” —Protocol Additional to the Geneva Convention, Article 51 (7)30
“A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose…because the rockets would either be fired at them, or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemnedby world opinion on account of the dead civilians.”—Dr. Mounir Herzallah, July 30, 2006
“Those good Jews brought…prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force.” —Syrian Alawi notable’s letter to French Prime Minister, June 1936
“No one doubted that the Arabs had benefitted from Jewish immigration. Their numbers had almost doubled between 1917 and 1940, wages had gone up, the standard of living had risen more than anywhere else in the Middle East.” —Historian Walter Laqueur”
: – ) Are you serious, or do you KNOW that you are distorting what I said? My point is that IF THE ARABS HAD NOT BEEN and continued to be WRONG, the whole region would have been a good place for everyone to live!
BUT, let us assume you are serious. I know it probably makes you itch but here come some more inconvenient facts:
“During the 1970s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth-fastest-growing economy in the world—ahead of such ‘wonders’ as Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself.”—Historian Efraim Karsh”
You remember that time right? When Israel occupied the West Bank after the ’67 debacle; the area Jordan had stolen from the mandate in 48, and then violated the ceasefire by denying most Christians and all Jews access to their holy places!
Weirdly enough that the ONLY TIMES THE Palestinians have had much PEACE AND PROSPERITY was when the British or the Jews were running the place! Go figure!
Me - So are u done with your Quotes or you have some more left? all you quote are one sided biased quotes from people either terribly biased and “I know all the truth” type like you and nothing else.
That is your assessment of:
Syrian Alawi notable’s, Dr. Mounir Herzallah, Hezbollah’s Secretary General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Faisal Husseini, PLO representative in Jerusalem and a PA minister, PA Communications Minister Imad Falouji, and YASSAR ARAFAT ? All of them, and the Geneva Convention AND the UN = “terribly biased” AGAINST MUSLIMS?
ROFLOL! I just choked on my Dr. Pepper I laughed so hard!!!
Anyway while we are at it, let me present the other side of the story.
I can’t wait for this… : – )
(as fantasized by Jihadists)
1. Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
Utter fantasy, there never was a nation of Palestine. Not only that, nothing was destroyed by the Zionists, on the contrary, they bought wasteland and made it blossom. I have relatives who passed through in ’30’s and then again in ’50’s, I have first hand accounts as well as public records, Turkish surveys and census data, German WWI photographs etc. etc.. LOL.
2. Israel holds the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed…500+
Do you really think I am too stupid to notice that you have never linked a single claim to a source in all this “debate”? Who defined “ethnically cleansing” in these cases? Hamas, who publically desire to ethnically cleanse the Jews? As dishonest as you have been so far that number probably includes the JEWISH settlements in Gaza cleared by the Israelis when they pulled out and gave it all over to the oh, so peaceful Palestinians. Who then destyoed 1/6th of the economy of Gaza by throwing a tantrum of Mohamedan proportions and destroying the greenhouse business that Israel had freely left behind INTACT AND FUNCTIONAL as a seed for Palestinian economic growth.
“Take that you oppressive Israelis, We will starve our babies rather than accept your gesture of peace and goodwill!”
Such honor! NOT!
Then they commenced provocational attacks on Israel, but not Egypt! WHO ALSO DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO FREELY CROSS THEIR BORDERS!
3. Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported…4 million +
When the hell did this happen? During your Imam’s hashish dreams? That number is so far off it is not even in the same neighborhood as reality!
On their own accord, an estimated 600,000 1 Palestinian Arabs fled a war zone, which
their leaders had created. An estimated 250,000 to 300,000 2 of those refugees in 1948
left even before their homes became part of a war zone.
The human tragedy of being uprooted notwithstanding, Palestinian refugees were
neither hapless targets nor innocent bystanders. The first stage of the 1948 war was a
fierce interethnic or anti-Zionist civil war in which Palestinians were the aggressors and
the initiators; the second half was an all-out war involving regular armies, whose
participation the Palestinians engineered. The violent path that Palestinians chose – and
the ensuing fear, disorientation, and economic deprivation of war – led to their own
4. Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished…60 thousand +
5. Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation…500+ times
That is more a condemnation of the UN than of Israel given the history of places like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc. etc. ad nauseum… oh I forgot MUSLIM nations or allies in terror are GOOD GUYS to you. My Bad.
6. Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes…100+ times
Again, how is this anything but an indictment of the UN and the OIC and other obstructionists/Jihadists?
7. Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
You are REALLY starting to sound brainwashed now. I can come up with half a dozen and more countries – OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD – who have killed FAR FAR more, in some cases, Soviets – Maoists, THEIR OWN PEOPLE, just since 1900! China, North Korea, Russia, Japan, Cambodia, North Vietnam, Germany, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India, The US and Britain to complete the SHORT LIST.
Heck in Saddam’s Iraq that 50,000 (if it is even a valid number) would have been a slow year for their judicial murder tsars.
8. Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country…250 thousand+
Showing latest available data.# 1
715 per 100,000 people# 2
584 per 100,000 people# 3
554 per 100,000 people# 4
523 per 100,000 people# 5
459 per 100,000 people# 6
437 per 100,000 people# 7
420 per 100,000 people# 8
416 per 100,000 people# 9
410 per 100,000 people# 10
402 per 100,000 people# 11
390 per 100,000 people# 12
388 per 100,000 people# 13
386 per 100,000 people# 14
367 per 100,000 people# 15
354 per 100,000 people# 16
Trinidad and Tobago:
351 per 100,000 people# 17
340 per 100,000 people= 18
339 per 100,000 people= 18
339 per 100,000 people# 20
Saint Kitts and Nevis:
338 per 100,000 people# 21
333 per 100,000 people# 22
327 per 100,000 people# 23
324 per 100,000 people# 24
303 per 100,000 people# 25
Antigua and Barbuda:
278 per 100,000 people# 26
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:
270 per 100,000 people# 27
267 per 100,000 people# 28
253 per 100,000 people# 29
250 per 100,000 people# 30
243 per 100,000 people# 31
234 per 100,000 people# 32
229 per 100,000 people# 33
226 per 100,000 people# 34
214 per 100,000 people# 35
210 per 100,000 people# 36
209 per 100,000 people# 37
207 per 100,000 people# 38
204 per 100,000 people# 39
198 per 100,000 people# 40
193 per 100,000 people# 41
184 per 100,000 people# 42
178 per 100,000 people= 43
176 per 100,000 people= 43
176 per 100,000 people# 45
175 per 100,000 people
174 per 100,000 people
9. Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
Got a source, or do I smell brain farts again? How many members of Hamas who were claimed as civilians and then found to be on HAMAS WEBSITES LISTED AS FIGHTERS do I need to convince you that is baloney?
10. Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…200 thousand+
11. Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 10800012. Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees13. Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries14. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbours15. Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
And when HUMANE Hamas has your head cut off you will not be bothered ever again by that nasty migraine. Such compassion!
16. Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment17. Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it18. Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination19. Israel is among the select few that has legalized torture
Oh, you ARE a real smooth liar aren’t you? ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES PRACTICE TORTURE FAR WORSE THAN ANYTHING DONE IN THE WEST AS A PRACTICE FOR TWO HUNDRED YEARS! Not counting the Soviets and Nazis.
20. Israel is the country that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
Disputed territory that they have a right to settle in that has NEVER BEEN LEGALLY REMOVED BY A BINDING UN RESOLUTION. Too bad, So sad, wrong again.
21. Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
Details? Or should I just trust you? LOL
22. According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
How about the record for the highest number of individual assaults, attacks and terrorist bombings? That would be a hell of a competition, so MANY Muslim nations would be neck an neck down to the wire around the concentration camps THEY TELL US they wish they could build for the Jews!
I have had about enough of this for today, I will post the rest of Mansoor’s delusional diatribes tomorrow I hope. YAWN.
It is a tactic of pro-Palestine people (indeed of all partisans) to jump from one
argument to another as pints are raised that they are:
A. Unable to answer
B. Unwilling to answer.
Immediately on encountering one of these unfair logical hate-tactics the pro-Palestine (also known as the anti-Israel crowd) pundit leaps to the nearest ad hominum or personal attack they find handy; anything other than answer the point actually raised.
When they are the ones raising a point it does one no good to make a reasoned response, the pro-Palestine-ian (henceforth to be referred to as the pP’s) will simply jump to the next step on the Palestinian Merry-Go-Round.
As a public service Heretics Crusade is providing this guide to major points on the PMGR so you can make a valiant, but almost certainly futile, attempt to keep the pP’er on track:
We jump on with a response to the pP’s assertion that Israel is “collectively punishing” the Palestinians because their leaders are
responsible for violence and terrorism with the fact that those same Palestinians elected those Arabic Hitler’s and Himmler’s and Berya’s knowing their goals and attitudes toward Israel and Jews.
The pP’er next tells us that Israel has no right to isolate the Palestinians and we respond that no one makes the Egyptians and Jordanians and Lebanese keep their borders closed to the “peace loving” Palestinians; they come back with the excuse that Israel “occupies” land that we then point out was formerly aggressively occupied by Jordan and Egypt and Syria in the course of those countries territorial-based wars of aggression in 1973, 1967 and 1948.
So then the pPer will claim that Jews Stole the Land from Arabs. OR it might berendered “stole all the good land”, but the message is the same, we had a land of milk and honey and the Jews stole it. We then respond that more than 90% of the land was purchased from absentee landlords, almost all Arabs themselves, and was barren when the Jews bought it and that it was the industry
of the Jews that MADE the land worth anything at all. We show them pictures of Israel in 18050, 1880, 1920 and 1930 and the pP’er simply says that the Jews came to the land from other lands to settle even after we show them that most of the Arab population of the 1930s were recent immigrants themselves, come for the jobs brought by the British and Zionists.
One key point that many pro-Israel people miss out on; one that leaves them vulnerable to certain arguments, is how the permission to SETTLE and be self-determining was given to the Jews in the Palestinian Mandate (which never mentioned Arabs
by name) but, that SOVEREIGNTY was not in the cards until THE ARABS rejected the rights of the Jews to live in the Mandate AT ALL. THAT is what brought about the ultimate partisan attempt by the UN that the Arabs again rejected, launching a guerilla, then civil, then conventional war against all international laws and resolutions of the time going back 70 years.